Diesel & petrol alternatives? Your thoughts please
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Like you, and many others, I have my reservations about electric vehicles. I do believe we will get there with the battery technology but will be let down by the infrastructure to support them.
One point I have not heard mentioned is the comparison with how the UK gas supply system to homes is being upgraded. We had our first house in 1983 and soon after our supply was renewed with a new pipe in as part of a national update. 39 years later they have just started the same work on my mothers house. If/when the national upgrade is finished it might be in time for the replacement of a gas boiler with another gas boiler to be a non event. So will it take 40 years to upgrade our electricity supply network to cope with the increased demand, and by then will we be looking at an alternative power supply for our vehicles, such as hydrogen.
Colin
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My comments on market demand for used EV’s come from ‘the trade’ and recent reports from auction houses and used car underwriters who set end of lease values. The reality is very few people want a used EV with a poor range and there are problems with diminishing range as the battery ages and efficacy wanes. There are many reports of used Leaf’s and Zoe’s which will barely cover 60 miles on full charge.
i would never dream of stopping once in a 100 mile journey with the caravan unless something untoward happened en route. I hope the novelty of uncoupling and hooking up everytime you stop to charge doesn’t wear off..... i am all for the benefits electric propulsion but the way legislators are forcing the change to battery EV’s without consideration for all the other options and implications of a one size fits all solution will end up as another dieselgate in 10-20 years.0 -
A friend of mine has just retired from a very well known national organisation (perhaps I'd better not name them). His job necessitated the use of a van and it took him all over the east and west midlands visiting non-domestic properties to carry out surveys and occasionally some actual work. For the last 6 or 8 months he was provided with an all electric van. Initially he was very enthusiastic about it. After a short time, though, he realised that there were pitfalls. First of all he was lucky to get more than 50mph from the vehicle which meant it was taking longer to get to customers. The available range also became a problem. There were numerous times, he told me, when he had to ask his boss which job(s) he should put off to a later date as there wasn't enough battery power to get around all his call list and get him home again.
Partially because of this it was arranged with a college in the east midlands, (one of their customers), that he was allowed to use their charging point when he was in that area. This was fine other than having to wait whilst the van charged up and also except for the days when he got there and there was another vehicle being charged and / or another waiting. Some calls for those days had to be cancelled, not good for customer relations.
Because of these problems which reduced daily productivity, at least one of my friend's ex-colleagues doing a similar job has already had to revert from an electric van to a diesel van again.
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This post is from September 2017 and with interest, I note from more recent posts that this switch to electric vehicles is still just a total nonsense! Apart from more availability of new model electric vehicles, a few more charging stations, it is proven that the current flock of EV's have a lifespan similar to that of a domestic washing machine, before enormous costs are incurred in replacement batteries. Furthermore, nothing available in my budget that can tow a family sized caravan more than 100 yards.
We were all advised in 2001 to switch to diesel vehicles because they were less polluting than the petrol variants. Now we're being forced to ditch the diesels and buy hybrids or better still, electric vehicles.
Whilst I dont disagree with the moral ethics of changing to said vehicles, the reality is, in this current climate, impossible to do so for the majority. Thank goodness I no longer require a tow vehicle, caravan is sold and I can still potter about in my diesel vehicle until the time comes to surrender my licence.
I'll post again on this thread (if I'm still here) in another 4 years' time. I doubt anything will change, other than my road tax increasing, along with fuel price hikes.
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HMG may well be getting some money from all types of road transport by then as well ,with charging by the mile to use roads
With the possible rise in their "prefered" type of vehicles the exchequer is loosing more and more income form fuel taxes and road fund licences
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As an EV owner of four years, all I can say the car has lasted well, it's not going to rot on it's aluminium sub frame topped by carbon fibre bodywork. Afterwards it's about 90% recyclable. By the time the batteries wear out (guaranteed for 8 years) the battery production costs may have come down, there maybe something else being developed. EVs are holding their secondhand value well.
They may not, indeed, be the future but as fossil fuel stocks dwindle and we all have to switch to renewables these vehicles have been at the forefront of new technologies.
No you won't find many EVs with good towing capabilities. Does anyone need to tow, towing wastes fuel, burning up precious energy.
There's no moral right or wrong but we have got a future problem with some types of energy running out. It needs to be conserved somehow.
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One of our neighbours has a 15 plate mitsubishi phev they need a large car for the family and dog(may be personal reg?) but they do say it now needs charging more often as it is used mostly for local journies and now seems to be running on the IC engine more often as the batt MPC is now getting lower.,but when said about an update they say they have checked but the PX offered is far below what they would consider to change
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You can clean up your PHEV, run it down to empty, let the battery cool down for an hour or so, programme the heater to come on high for 30 minutes, the heater will probably not make the full 30 minutes.
Allow the battery to rest and recharge it, apparently the expert say the BMU is buggy as hell, using this method regularly reset the BMU, in a while you will notice an increase in range.
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"No you won't find many EVs with good towing capabilities. Does anyone need to tow, towing wastes fuel, burning up precious energy.
There's no moral right or wrong but we have got a future problem with some types of energy running out. It needs to be conserved somehow."
Hi Brue, I can only speak for myself but, having a caravan as my choice of camping accommodation, yes, I need to tow!
As for the moral angle, I am not sure how owning a MH is any different as they are not going to win any fuel economy prices.
You have a EV, and it seem to work for you, but there are millions of people for who a pure EV just will not work, now or in the foreseeable future and whilst there will undoubtedly be development leading, one hopes, to increased range and lower purchase prices, it seems to me we are heading for a typical fudge come the cut off date.
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What does your Outlander PHEV return when towing?
Colin
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Our is the 2020 2.4 Outlander PHEV the worst we recorded 26.5 and the best to date 28.5 mpg that is over 180 miles in warm weather, and measured brim to brim, vehicles display showed 29 + mpg.
On shorter towing 70+ miles we have seen just over 32 mpg, so I would imagine the longer the journey the higher the fuel consumption.
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I think we are all dinosaurs. We are doing what we want to and not what we need to. I'd be surprised to see a MH returning good mpg figures, as I am the figures above for the Mitsubishi mpg. I say that having spoke to an owner a couple of years ago who was seeing 18/20mpg.
Surely at present a good modern diesel or petrol is still the way forward if you have to own one vehicle. I have a 1.5 petrol that returns 48/50mpg in everyday driving and up to 40mpg towing. Admittedly I have a low profile van but I'm aware Yeti owners with the 2L diesel return similar figures solo and with a "normal" van.
Colin
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Some 'changes' to our pastime are happening right before our very eyes but some are not seeing these as they do not fit that 'old' model we have so enjoyed. Look back a few years and you will see the start of those touring pitches morphing into a different beast. Along come cabins, pods, wigwams, yurts, Safari tents, Airstreams and the like. With such accommodation all you need is a 'modest' EV and a charging point on the pitch. The future is thus, the future is the alternative. Owning your own ELV may be the privilege of the very few.
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Hi Brue, As the OP asked for opinions I was just saying that, so far as I can see, there are millions who, unless there are significant changes/improvements, could not consider a pure EV-and that's not because they/we/me are dinosaurs!
As you say we are all free to make our choices, and if I was able to run an EV in anything approaching the convenience I have now I would consider it, but I just cant see that happening any time soon,and definitely not while we want to tow a van.
At the moment there is a lot of positivity around EVs, but like most things there are always, at least, two sides to the story, however, right or wrong, I can see the 'definitive dates' becoming aspirational dates' as the reality that we are just not set up to switch in the numbers talked about kicks in.
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Ours MH, using the on board gadget, returns slightly less (29.3)mpg to those quoted by AD
You are right about the efficiency of modern diesels my 2.2l Mercedes E Class is returning over 29.8 mpg towing 1500kg now after 5 years of year on year improvement.
So certainly not more economical. It has only done 6000 miles though, so might improve a bit yet.
I suppose the main economy over when we were towing, is we now have linear tours with shorter hops. Rather than visiting a place for a week and travelling out / back from it.
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"I suppose the main economy over when we were towing, is we now have linear tours with shorter hops. Rather than visiting a place for a week and travelling out / back from it."
That may be true for the Caravn V MH scenario but, in the context of the OP, then means that rather than having a base, which one would assume would have a charge facility, you could be more reliant on public charging locations as you travel your linear route?
As for MPG, worst we ahve had was 16.8 MPG, in a 2.7 L Twin Turbo petrol Audi Allroad, and best is 33 in Audi Q5 2L diesel on a day that we were on the motorway within a few minutes and cruised at 56 MPH for hour after hour-incidentally our MH buddies who were with us had a very similar MPG in Autotrail.
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Reading through the many posts it's clear that many believe the issue is underpinned by the rapid depletion of fossil fuels. It isn't, is about the detrimental effects of these on the planet. That is what is driving this clamour to find alternatives.
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+1, geez even the USA are on board👍🏻
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They still have a fair way to go to match the decimation of our industry, which in 2019 stood at 2 million tonnes.☹️
Where the United States gets its coal
In 2019, about 706 million short tons of coal were produced in 23 U.S. states. Surface mines were the source of 62% of total U.S. coal production and accounted for 65% of the total number of mines. About 0.5 million tons, or less than 0.1% of total coal production, was refuse recovery coal.A short tonne is 2000 pounds. The Americans always like to complicate measurements.😂
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Yes, AD there are reserves enough, although depleting, to destroy the planet several times over if we continued to use at that rate.. Sadly the money, the technology, the desire or more importantly, the time does not exist to solve this. Hence the direction now adopted.
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Reserves are low in the uk, look up how many years we have left and why we need renewables rather than be reliant on supplies from elsewhere. Even the USA is running out of natural gas, about 84 years left if I recall. I think we have around 20-50yrs supply offshore. Renewables are essential, it just so happens that this will reduce our carbon "footprint" at the same time.
We are still wasting fuel in the meantime which is why vehicles with alternative renewable power are needed.
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Brue there are vast reserves of coal still under my feet in Yorkshire.My late Father in Law was in a senior management role in the Coal Board and he used to shake his head in sorrow at the waste of such resources by the deliberate entombment of them.Clean coal technology was not allowed to develop sufficiently in the UK before pilot plants were shut down and the technology was sold to US interests.Contentious statements to some, perhaps,but that was his well informed view.That is now all "water under the bridge" as the years and the political agenda have moved on.
We are not actually short of exploitable energy resources in the UK but the wisdom of such exploitation of them is open to question.The technology to do so (acceptably) and the political will to do so are also all in short supply.
I cannot help but question how "green" EVs actually will prove to be in the long run,given the issues around:what is in their batteries and how it is to be obtained,how the batteries will eventually be recycled and just how the vast amounts of electricity to charge them all, is to be generated.
I am not in any way arguing for a return to a coal based energy economy(that ship sailed years ago) but I have lived long enough and seen enough to be very sceptical about "quick fixes" driven more by political imperatives than realism.
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Just being onboard is a step forward SL, I think the USA can be forgiven for not throwing millions out of work in a dash to look good👍🏻. Pres Biden is changing the emphasis from fossil fuel industries to renewables. Add to that he’s cancelled the Keystone XL pipeline(oil sands) from Alberta to Nebraska. . .He means business-the boy done good😊
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"I cannot help but question how "green" EVs actually will prove to be in the long run,given the issues around:what is in their batteries and how it is to be obtained,how the batteries will eventually be recycled and just how the vast amounts of electricity to charge them all, is to be generated.
I am not in any way arguing for a return to a coal based energy economy(that ship sailed years ago) but I have lived long enough and seen enough to be very sceptical about "quick fixes" driven more by political imperatives than realism."
Hi K, Many years back I was in a gathering where the attitudes and views of people towards contentious issues was discussed.
A very well respected senior union official was accused of being a cynic. His response, " I am not a cynic, I am a realist, with experience" has stayed with me.
Its easy to see that we are likely to be accused of being cynical when we simply ask to hear both sides of some stories and the response to any question raised about the viability, in the long term for the masses, is one such question.
In the gathering I mentioned it was asserted that attitudes toward the issues on discussion had changed, something we hear about, for example, about EVs, and how wonderful the employer must be to affect such change.
The response was "If you think we have changed how people think you are delusional. All we have done is teach them to exhibit acceptable behaviour"
We have all seen in the past year that targets set to 'look good' drift and become aspirational rather than strictly achievable.
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