Quality and Reliability - can you help?
Members old and new ask for advice on this forum regarding which are the most reliable and/or best quality leisure vehicles. Some are asking because they are new and genuinely need advice; others from bitter experience of current ownership and want to ‘get it right next time’.
Currently we get an answer from Fred or whoever, who has never had any problem with his Bailey, Coachman, Swift, Elddis whatever. Unfortunately, this is hardly scientific and will be of limited value to the person posing the question. Also, it will never drive improvement in leisure industry regarding vehicle quality or reliability.
Regrettably, there is no independent objective based evidence that we can reference in order to help us decide how we part with our money. It really is a lottery, with some members having to pick up the pieces after purchase and chase warranty claims. Indeed, due to a lack of objective evidence, there is little incentive for leisure vehicle manufacturers to improve.
The various caravan/motorhome clubs seem to take no interest in improving things for members.
I have contacted the independent consumer organisation Which? to let them know about some of our common problems of poor build, poor quality and reliability. Anyone familiar with Which? will know what a good job they do in protecting the consumer. They are happy to publish and recommend good products or advise us not to buy poor ones.
To investigate the leisure vehicle industry will require significant investment in time and money by Which? The unfortunate truth is that Which? does not see enough requests to justify them investigating the industry.
I therefore have a plea that if you genuinely want to make an informed choice when you next purchase and drive improvement of leisure vehicles, you should e-mail Which? at the following e-mail address: which@which.co.uk.
Please note: you do not have to be a member to contact them. Let them know about your problems and/or wishes to make an informed purchasing decision. I have no connection to Which? other than being a member that benefits from their independent research.
If our own clubs won’t help us, let’s do something positive for the future together. Alternatively, we could just carry on asking the same questions and receiving the same standard of vehicle!
Comments
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Interesting thought but whether it will get much traction I don't know. Having been a watcher and contributor to forums like this for at least the past 20 years I sometimes find it difficult to workout what is a serious problem and what is not. I have seen people jump up and down over the most minor problems but others being stoical about much more serious issues.
Over the years of being involved in this hobby I have had four new caravans (plus two secondhand) and two new motorhomes. The caravans were amazingly relatively trouble free. The motorhomes have had some issues but they have always been resolved by the dealer. Also because both caravans and motorhomes contain so many third party parts not all the blame can be directed at the LV manufacturer? I will be interested to know what others think.
David
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This might be controversial but are there owners out there who don't treat their LVs with care and attention to detail and are then disappointed to find things going wrong?
There are manufacturing faults and there are negligent owners in this mix.
I'm not attaching blame to either party. What I have noticed in the complaints posted is a slowness of response to faults and repairs. Is this the most irksome part of a faulty purchase?
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I think the problem is largely the attitude displayed by manufacturers and dealers. They know they can churn LVs out without paying too much attention to detail as we mugs will buy them anyway. Then, if a complaint is made, they become the master of writing fob off emails, send you chasing round in circles, and eventually give ownership of the issue to the most inefficient weak link who was the cause of the problem in the first place.
Root and branch reform is needed and I suspect a big wake up call might be round the corner as 2030 approaches.
As for negligent owners, I think that is likely to be only a small percentage but will be a prime excuse used by the industry. The vast majority of faults in new vans can only be attributed to negligent manufacturers.
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In this Leisure pursuit? there is one thing that overides any form of "problems" with LVs whether with the build,PDI or as happens with some owners self inflicted misuse
, we have found is to have a good dealer where customer care is important, rather than as very many it seems these days , profits and then little or nil customer interface afterwards
And it is a reason that most other of our "big buy" appliances come from John Lewis
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The appalling build standards, reliability of getting a trouble free model, and abysmal after sales service are the main contributory factors as to why we never consider buying a new UK model outfit. It’s coming to something when our old 1984 Caravan is drier than something UK built in last couple of years.
Good luck with it👍
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But if you never buy new how do you know? As I mentioned up thread I have purchased new four caravans and two motorhomes over the past 30 years and none of them would I describe the quality as being appalling, in fact quite the opposite. I think we have to be careful here that we are commenting on real life experience rather than what we think is the answer? OK some people have had bad experiences but some of us have not.
David
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Friends and acquaintances of ours have bought new, we have been fully aware of the issues and dealer hassle they have had, and not just with one caravan. Window replacements, shower wall replacements, they were only a few months old🤷♀️
It’s just not for us. They are lovely looking outfits, but the build quality and finish just isn’t there consistently, being tied into a warranty doesn’t appeal. However, we did do some research around small Hymer’s, actually went and looked at a Merc based one, very nice, but a bit larger than we needed. Eriba caravans are quality as well, but again, not that practical with the two big dogs we had at the time. Autosleeper are nice, bit better quality than most UK builds, but the latest models aren’t as good as they were. Not talking PVC here, but coach built.
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I agree with your comments. We've purchased two new caravans, one used one and two used motorhomes since we ventured into vanning 16 years ago. No major problems with any of them. We've also had reasonable relationships with the dealers we've used. We've swapped around from personal choice but there are many who own a particular van for years.
Yes, there will be poor experiences along the way for some but also good experiences too.
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Can only speak from our experience.
Had an open mind to British or Continental, and after about a years research we ended up with a German Motorhome. Reasons; Principally, it came down to three things, Build quality, design and cost.
Everyone will have different priorities, but for us and at the time we plumped for a Knaus which offered us great design, great build quality and very reasonable cost. Having said that cost may now be a harder circle to square as they have all increased disproportionally.
From our experience the British manufacturers, with the exception of Autotrail, were appallingly made, the same costs as the German manufacturers and poor design. It was obvious that the designers of 'new' British motorhomes were originally caravaners. Not that there is anything wrong with caravan design, but a Motorhome requires different features.
Knaus, Bustner and Hymer (and several other German manufacturers) have perfected the design of motorhomes so I can thoroughly recommend them. The British manufacturers need to learn from the Germans and open their minds to the internal design. Removable tables, really?
Having had our motorhome for 4 years now, the only issues we have had has been with the Oven, and Fridge, both Dometic, a Swedish company that manufactures in China.
That should put the cat amount the pigeons lol!
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WE must have been very lucky with most of our purchases , we have only had any real problems with one modern van an Elddis(plenty with our first few in the late 1960s) mostly rotten wood frames ,before modern sealants came along, along with now also long body warranties,
Every make where ever made can be a "friday van" as we have found when speaking to many owners both UK andfrom "over there" in our years which had numerousof having LVs and using sites
As posted before ,one of the most unsatsified owners was a German family with a from new Hymer M/C
The uk market is mostly very different from continental owners ,in that we tend to want all the latest bells and whistles in the lightest possible LV whereas continental makes tend to far heavier basic models to start
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"Not talking PVC here, but coach built."
It's PVCs as well, TDA. In the last 3 years build quality and customer service have both declined. That’s personal experience, not hearsay.
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What do others consider a minor or major issue though? If I had spent say £20-25,000 on a caravan, or £50-60,000 on a MH, I would expect a year trouble free touring, and sailing through the first service/checks, and the same for a very long time after. Anything at all that takes my new purchase off the road/back to the dealer I would consider unacceptable. Misuse or accidents aside of course, although fixtures and fittings ought to be designed and robust enough to cope with day to day usage. I don’t think this is too much to ask, not from the manufacturers, or after dealers selling products have checked things out?
I would add that a couple of our friends have actually gone to court over new caravans.☹️
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Personally I think that is somewhat unrealistic. Our current motorhome when it was just under a year old there was a problem with the PCB which failed on the Truma boiler. I can't blame the dealer for that or even Bailey, could I blame Truma (which happens to be German!) perhaps but these things happen. Fortunately the dealer sorted it out for us at the service. There was no point me getting stressed out about it or disappointed, or writing to Which, it was just something that needed to be fixed. Having said that I have had several LV's with Truma heating which have operated perfectly over a number of years so perhaps in this case we were just unlucky?
David
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Oh they tried and tried to sort things out amicably, but the dealership didn’t want to know. Had to go to court sadly to resolve things, but they won thankfully. It’s a big dealer as well.
DK, that’s very unlucky, and I suppose not down to manufacturer or dealer. Modern vans are like modern cars, very complex systems nowadays, not so easy to fix yourself. But I still say they shouldn’t leak or fall apart through bad design or workmanship under reasonable usage.
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I like to try to support British industry whenever I can, but I have to admit that when it comes to buying new caravans or motorhomes, I have not been that pleased with the standard of the construction. Each of my last 4 new vehicles, 2 motorhomes and 2 caravans, have all had faults which have needed repairs. I admit they have been repaired under warranty without any quibble, but it is a nuisance when you have to keep returning to the dealer to get it fixed. The repairs required have ranged from water leaking through the roof on one of the motorhomes, extensive damp in one caravan, doors falling off, cracked sinks, I could go on. I may have been unlucky, but on the other hand, I have also bought new cars and had no problems at all. Their quality control appears to be a lot better than the caravan/motorhome industry, in my opinion. Whether buying a foreign brand would have been any better, I have no idea.
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The main problem I see on here is the length of time it can take to resolve issues. It's not possible to compare a van with a car, a van is basically a built on component either to a chassis or a motorised chassis in the case of a motorhome. A lot could go wrong due to design and build plus the add ons including domestic style equipment., wiring and plumbing etc. It would be unusual if these vans leave the factory unchecked and without a paper trail. Dealers are also expected to do pre-sale checks and to some extent, prospective buyers. We've always gone through vans prior to buying but we should have confidence that we're buying a reliable product with a reliable back up if faults appear. The length of time it can take to resolve issues seems to be the weak chain in the link.
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Thank you DavidKlyne for making my point for me, there is too much subjectivity and heresy. What we need is facts collated and published by a reliable independent organisation.
There are some very good dealers that will try to rectify issues in a timely manner. However, there are a number of members who suffered because dealers and manufacturers have been unresponsive to say the least.
I am not too sure what other members experience has been, but I have had to take my van to a dealer, have the faults verified and then wait weeks for the replacement parts to arrive and be fitted. I am only one member however who seems to have suffered significant issues from 3 separate brands of caravan and 3 separate dealers. However, mine is only one data set and in isolation means nothing in the broader context of members experience.
Automotive manufacturers utilise a European and international Quality Management System to govern not only their own design and manufacture etc, but importantly all those 3rd party manufacturers that form their own supply chain.
I am not sure why LV manufacturers cannot manage their supply chains in a similar fashion. LV technology is relatively simple so I struggle to see why I should accept poor 3rd party equipment on any of my LVs. One thing is for sure, when a LV manufacturer can consistently demonstrate good quality and reliability as perceived by the customer, I know where I will spend my money.
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I think the time taken to get any problems sorted is in a big part down to, as with nearly all industry these days , the "Just in Time" way of manufacture where large stocks of parts are no longer kept on site ,only arriving from their supplier "just in time" to keep the model on the production line at the time with materials needed for completion
As with the slipping of deliveries of new products to the dealer/customer,advance? orders for one model it seems will be produced any later orders will push the next model down the production line
And in consequence any "spare parts" they may have will be used for production line models before any possible need of parts for "warranty work
Look at how the Quality (i understand from some owners) of Coachman has suffered since production was increased to satisfy increased demand and getting any "warranty" parts has been a real problem for their dealers
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We have now had 4 Kia cars and all have been very reliable ,our only problems we have had was when a dealer in another part of the country was less than helpfull,when we were away (and could not obtain the part?) but after a call to where we purchased the car ,the correct part was sent from KIA to the "foreign"dealership in Devon
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I think you mean 'hearsay' but we know what you meant. Predictive text has much to answer for.
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And as i was "intimating?" it seems at times the "Chain" has a weak link
When we purchased our present Bailey ,out dealer phoned us when it was delivered ,asking if we would like to see it before their workshop did the PDI on one of the seats was the report by the Quality control inspector (3 A4 pages)at Bailey,the salesman an i went through it.and his comments were that all the faults We Noticed that had been ticked off as OK? were why they spend a long time doing their PDI before the handover to their customers and he said it was the same on nearly all the vans they recieve
They are Bailey and Coachman main dealers but can obtain other makes if required
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That's what manufacturers have quality control for and why dealers, supposedly, do PDI's.
How a MH with a warped interior wall can escape the notice of quality control and how one can be PDI'd yet have a fridge door that won't close escapes me. That's just 2 examples from my very recent experience.
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