Refillable gas bottle dilema
We recently needed to replace the 13kg Patio gas bottle which we use for our BBQ at home. Calor’s RRP is £42.50, but the first place that I visited wanted £50 for an exchange. A number of phone calls on my part clarified that many outlets had run out, including Calor themselves, and all were charging more than the RRP. Additionally, since it has become clear that Calor has no intention of exchanging our CalorLite bottles for an upgraded replacement, we are facing increasing difficulty in supplies, as time passes. We’d like to break out of Calor’s stranglehold and switch to a refillable system. Our frequent use of basic sites, without electricity, makes the thought of a fixed installation which requires the caravan to be taken to a forecourt, unappealing. So a removable bottle sounds like what we need - except lots of LPG equipped garages won’t supply gas to them. Now it’s got worse because companies like BP are withdrawing Autogas supplies due to reducing demand brought about by electric vehicles. That means fewer and more widely distributed availability in the future. Switching to an Autogas system involves a capital outlay which could traditionally be recouped, over time, through lower gas prices. But faced as we are, with growing difficulties with supplies, that may not be as practical as it first seems. Do any of our members see a bright side to the dilemma?
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It may well be increasingly difficult to get gas on garage forecourts but I still think that is some way off. There will always be a demand for some for heating etc and it maybe for those who wish to continue using refillable bottles will have to visit the likes of Countrywide, now owned by >Flo Gas< for supplies.
It is probably wise to hedge your bets and install one refillable cylinder alongside an exchangable one with a change over system.
peedee
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Thanks PD. We’d come to the same bet hedging conclusion. So the plan is to buy one refillable bottle to share between home and the van. It’s not ideal to be shifting it regularly, but our nearest Morrisons Autogas retailer is 15 minutes away, which is no worse than our nearest CalorLite dealer, when they’ve got them in stock. If we could, we’d run the home BBQ off house gas, but you can’t buy the correctly jetted Weber Q2000 in this country and Weber don’t sell a conversion, even in the US.
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I'm a wimp. I don't carry 13 kg gas bottles around. I don't go searching to buy them either. Flogas come to me and charge £38, delivered free, for that size of refill, either propane or butane. Lazy way !
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That's £2.33 per litre. Autogas is about 65p per litre. How much gas do you get through and then work out what not getting refillable is costing you.
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I have a 10kg fibre glass bottle (now Flo-gas).My nearest supplier for refills is Homebase.£50 for a refilled bottle =£5.00 per kilo.Flogas dealers are a bit cheaper but most do not seem to stock the fibreglass cylinders!So the saving in weight costs quite a lot of money.....one could say it is as big a "con" as calors Patio gas ...which costs more than a standard propane red bottle for some unknown reason!
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Cyberyacht that Propane bottle will last me another 2 years at least. We use the Caravan throughout the winter, on various occasions. As the sites we use have Electric Hookups and we eat out mostly and Salads don't take a lot of cooking, it would be false economy to be buying a new system. Being close to Four Score age wise I think we will continue in the same vein of Caravaning that we have done in the last 42 years. I am sure we will get the hang of it one day.........but thanks for your concern of my financies.
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Hi
So, it's a balance between the initial cost of a refillable install, the amount of gas used per annum versus the price of an exchange.
An example. In 2008 I installed a full Gaslow system, I think it was around £450 then. The plan was to tour the UK and Europe mostly off grid and save a shed load on gas which would repay the outlay in 2 years. The reality was with touring UK and France, then getting employed by the club in 2010 meant that I'd saved £40 on pump price gas. Even using gas on rest days for the next 3 years when I sold the van I only recouped £55. So I ended up £400 out of pocket. If I'd had used Calor exchange bottles during that time I would have been £300+ better off against the refillable install. Just my take and situation. If you only use say 15kg of gas per year, best to suck up Calor's rip off prices?
Cheers
JK
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Don't forget the convenience factor JK of not having to heave heavy bottles about and being able to top up anywhere on the Continent. Single refillable bottle installations alongside a replacable bottle works well and is much cheaper. I put such a system in my first van for about £120 but my current van came with twin refillables which I think is not quite so convenient.
peedee
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The convenience was certainly the reason we had a refillable system installed. Our saving in the first year was like JK about £40. In general I don't see that changing dramatically, although this year will be much less as we are not going to France and using Aires. We don't intend replacing the MH though, which we will hopefully use for another 10 to 15 years. By which time I will certainly be past lifting heavy gas bottles.😂
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Indeed it all depends on folks' situation. We are normally away 4 months of the year and average out at £25 for gas. We use two 3.9 kg propane for ease of handling and when a replacement for an empty we pick it up on a CMC site when next using one.
With that level of usage refillable is pointless. I wonder what level of gas usage is the break point, taking into account the convenience of calor purchase.
I suspect that our 6kg a year is possibly a financial break-even over 10 years. If I used 30kg a year and calor cost me £70 more a year I wouldn't consider it worthwhile to have a refillable with a caravan.
May be different with a motorhome but looking at JK's saving over one or two years touring it doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
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taking into account the convenience of calor purchase.
With a MH you can't get much more convenient than pulling up at a pump and attaching a hose. Appreciate different for a caravan. Plus of course with the appropriate adaptor, you can do it over there.
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"So, it's a balance between the initial cost of a refillable install, the amount of gas used per annum versus the price of an exchange."
I feel it is important in the cost balance calculation to take in the full costs involved, by that I mean not just the product's cost, but also including the costs like travelling and "time" to get a refill or exchange,
Here, there is no "local" option to get a LPG refill, but I can get a FOC delivery of an exchange to my home, plus benefit from a bit of discount for having an account with the venders.
I had several "local" LPG refilling sources, though all meant a drive of several miles, but everyone of these has ceased supplying LPG. One LPG retailer remains, but that one does not allow refilling of portable bottles.
It is the changing away from the primary use of LPG ie for vehicle propulsion, the source for many of us, and from that closure of filling facilities that to us inhibits the adoption of a Safefill. Our usage would certainly pay off doing so, if I ignored the motoring cost and time involved, but then how secure is the availability?
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I appreciate it is different if using a motorhome and especially if using one though other parts of Europe Steve and dependant on how you use it. For a caravan then I suspect that it only worthwhile if off grid a lot and using gas for fridge and particularly for heating.
Around me the availability of Autogas has declined markedly along with the decline in car LPG installation.
I suspect also the calor gas was relatively cheaper when I started caravanning 39 years ago. With EHU being less prevalent much more gas was used. It has never been cheap though I suppose.
Back in April 1973 whilst still at college in Leeds I bought a mobile home and had it sighted at Elton near Chester for myself, wife and daughter. There was no central heating. Hot water on demand at kitchen and bathroom was via gas boiler, there was a gas fire in the front room but main heating was via 2 kw oil filled radiator in living room may have been a second one, 1.5kw in the hall, low wattage one (maybe 0.5 or 0.75) in daughters bedroom. No heating in our bedroom but the louvred door let heat through from the Hall. Bathroom I installed a heat and light bulb which was cosy. The gas fire was rarely used unless the heating had been turned down when it was not occupied and so I guess it was not that cheap to use or perhaps it was more of a faff to roll a bottle 100 metres.
Just out of interest and off topic. The site that I lived on I paid no more than £2,000 to buy and site our mobile home. Just looked now and the cheapest pre-owned is £80,000. I remember my mother in law being horrified at my decision to buy a 'caravan' to live in for my wife carrying our soon to be born daughter. I took her to see it at the dealership and she was amazed. I then took her to see the site and she was flabbergasted at how nice it was and the lovely gardens that folk kept. I couldn't afford to buy onto that site now as a student,
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Ww have a fixed Gaslow system and ares still managing to find enough places to fill up.
Unless using sites without EHU, it is not worth it in UK, but we had it fitted to use on our long European trips when it would be impossible to stay away that long without either access to refilling, or carrying extra gas.Quite a lot of the sites we used had metered EHU, so it was cheaper to run things on gas.
We still find it useful here to boost the heating in winter as our van is not so well insulated and has the 2kw Alde system.0 -
"we had it fitted to use on our long European trips when it would be impossible to stay away that long without either access to refilling, or carrying extra gas."
There is also the option to do "exchanges" of the Camping Gaz, very, very expensive, even over there. More logical if going the exchange route would be opting into using a local gas brand. Doing that allows the opting to propane if camping in the cooler times.
[ My Gaslight's clip-on 27 mm connection fits directly on Le Cube bottles. ]
Up till now I have carried a pair of Camping Gaz 907s as my potential emergency back u, as I carry these for the Cadac anyway.
I exchange these in France as that was cheaper than the £36 each asked last time I enquired in the UK.
Thankfully, our 10 kg Gaslight does our van's 6 summertime weeks on ACSI sites in France, with comfortable margins.
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Yes, we have a Camping Gaz 907, which 20 years back we used to carry with us as a back up, but then found that they were no longer available in Norway, where we went quite often, so that decided us to get refillables. Also, as you say, Camping Gaz is expensive.
For 10 years we were away March- June, and September-November, and even in May there can be snow on the ground In Norway and Sweden, and it can be below zero up in the Black Forest, so we needed access to plentiful gas supplies.
These days we are restricted to shorter, max 4-5 week breaks in UK.
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ADP1963 wrote "Being close to Four Score age wise I think we will continue in the same vein of Caravaning that we have done in the last 42 years. I am sure we will get the hang of it one day.........but thanks for your concern of my financies."
Don't buy green bananas then.
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I have been using the 10kg plastic bottles for some years. However, every time I take my caravan in for it's service my dealer tells me these are not suitable for caravans and are designed for patios only. He says that their height means the gas pipe has to go 'uphill' to the bottle which can result in problems with the regulator (I've never had a problem). The CAMC guidance still talks about using them so I am confused - should I be using them or not?
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