Caravan Club Non Insurance Policy
Comments
-
Interesting link brue. We used Military Mutual for House Insurance once. Found them pleasant enough to deal with, but everything seemed rather amateurish and not particularly good at document and payment handling. We used policy for a year, no claims made, but we didn’t consider renewing, it all seemed less professional than most of other companies we have used. A personal observation, others may have found them perfectly satisfactory. We like prompt communications and paperwork, and it just didn’t happen.
0 -
Yes - I have - or am in the middle of a claim at the moment - after some numpty decided to fire an air rifle at the side of our van in the middle of the night whilst on site a couple of weeks ago. It looks as if the cost to repair is going to be in the order of £1000 to £1500.
I can only say that, so far, my experience has been nothing but positive - but I am conscious that the claim hasn't been settled yet. The day after making the claim, an assessor arrived at our house and inspected the van and was in agreement with what was required to be done. He immediately emailed my nominated repairer/dealer and asked them to provide a written estimate. This has, amongst other things, required them to obtain a price for a replacement decal from Knaus and this has caused a delay for the last week but the assessor has been chasing them. My main concern is to get the job done quickly to avoid a trip to Cumbria in what could be bad winter weather. The assessor was in full agreement with me and was sympathetic and understanding.
The 'policy' was taken out last December, so I'm unclear as to whether it falls into the category of the subject under discussion. However, when I look at the documents on line, it is clearly called 'caravan cover' and not 'insurance'. I wasn't aware of this distinction, previously.
I do note, however, that in the small print, it does say that CC Ltd are regulated by the FCA and members can benefit from the FCA Compensation Scheme.
One thought that goes through my mind is that if this has happened because CC Ltd have taken advantage of being a 'mutual society' - does the same apply to others. Whilst both of our cars are with NFU Mutual, and I accept that they must be 'insured' rather than 'covered' (being motor vehicles) - would the same situation arise if I were to 'insure' the caravan with NFU?
0 -
not read all of this post, but does anybody seriously think the club would throw 1000's of members and possibly non members to the wolves, and leave 1000's of members and non members without adequate cover for their caravans, i think not, the loss of National and International reputation would be catastrophic for the business, also insurance is a large part of the clubs income, they are not going to do anything that is going jeopardise this, in fact as has been stated, they have probably made this change to ensure they get a larger slice of the cake, so they ain't going to throw it away.
Good OP but i think another storm in a teacup.
Insurance/cover what ever you like to call it is always a game of chance, would rather use the club offering than some of those cheapo offerings from some of the cowboy companies that are out there, but of course we can never be fully sure of what we have purchased until we come to claim. "proof of the pudding is in the eating"
5 -
I agree about insurance being a big income stream ,some years ago a senior member of the cc "advised" that overseas travel and insurance cover was far more important to keeping the club solvent than any income from sites or other parts of the clubs finances,and they had been thinking about ways to bring it caravan cover "in house" to increase the surplus that it puts into the clubs account
0 -
not read all of this post, but does anybody seriously think the club would throw 1000's of members and possibly non members to the wolves, and leave 1000's of members and non members without adequate cover for their caravans, i think not,
I would not expect to be 'thrown to the wolves' but that is far from the point. The simple point is that, in the event of a dispute, challenging a decision can be much more expensive without resort to an independent ombudsman
0 -
I am neutral on this one which is why I have put in links to further information. CAMC have been good to deal with over M/H insurance. As we don't have a caravan now I can't comment further except to say the club have explained why they went down this route previously. Maybe they need to explain Caravan Cover in detail and more clearly in a separate link somewhere?
1 -
maybe should not tempt fate, but in almost 60 years of motoring have only ever made 3 claims and never required the services of the ombudsman, but i still think the club would have more to loose than gain in the event of a claim having to go to the ombudsman so would think very carefully before alllowing this to happen, but possible but i would say it would have to be in extreme circumstances.
0 -
i still think the club would have more to loose than gain in the event of a claim having to go to the ombudsman
That is the crux of the matter. Obviously you have not read the thread as you admitted.
As far as I can see, unless the club were insolvent and the Builder's policy invoked, there is no recourse to the ombudsman as with an insurance policy. This is why the CMC make no mention of complaining to the ombudsman except in the case of the club being unable to fund a claim or claims and the Builder's policy then coming into effect.
I have had a dispute with an insurance company but was eventually able to resolve it in my favour without recourse to the ombudsman. They saw the sense of my argument regarding valuation. I didn't want to involve the ombudsman as it might have gone either way.
0 -
A clause in your fiance agreement states that the caravan must be "insured" at al times. No mention of Caravan cover.
Secondly our storage compound requires insurance at all times and again no mention of Caravan Cover.
Why does an answer to query come from an insurance@camc.com address which is misleading?
As said the only difference in cost is the 12% insurance premium tax which the club have found a way around.
The big concern is that the caravan cover is not regulated!
1 -
, but does anybody seriously think the club would throw 1000's of members and possibly non members to the wolves, and leave 1000's of members and non members without adequate cover for their caravans,
Selfish I know but I'm not concerned with the 1000s of members who (may be ) thrown to the wolves. If only one member is and that happens to be me, I would be very very concerned.
0 -
where it is the only source of protection perhaps against a public liability claim it is not adequate.
A very good point. Many years ago I had a motorcycle accident. The insurance company that insured the driver responsible was only offering about 80% payment of my claim in my judgement. In that event I decided that I would take them to court as my claim was clear. At the 11th hour they relented and paid more than my original claim as I advised them that in court I would also be claiming for loss of being able to enjoy hill walking for a period of time.
If, for some reason they had decided that their insured was not at fault and declined to pay out on the third party claim I presume that as that third party I could put the case to the ombudsman.
What would happen if the CMC decided that a third party claim was not justified? If the third party cannot do the same is their only recourse to sue me personally?
1 -
Not sure if I missed some information about insurance/cover changes, and if so then down to me. But it would be good if there was a clear and open statement addressing any concerns around some of the terminology in the documents. I do doubt that Club are risking their reputation as a provider. But some further clarity on why the changes, and who or what the benefits are might allay some confusion.
Two of the countries largest, and well regarded Insurance providers operate as Mutuals, NFU and LV. We have used both and it was always clear we were insured, not covered.
We used NFU for two purposes for years, always thought highly of them. But we felt let down badly at a very traumatic time when we had a claim disallowed. It didn’t involve a huge sum of money, but we had no recourse to challenge it, just had to go with the decision. On the second issue, which involved vehicle insurance, after years of taking out Land Rover insurance, we enquired about our latest LR to be told they wouldn’t insure it because LR theft was huge in our area. (For Defenders it was, in fact still is, but this was a Freelander) So we gave up. It’s a bit of a minefield, territory you think you know can suddenly become strewn with obstacles.
0 -
Does this mean the Club no longer sells '5Cs or super 5Cs' Caravan insurance ? I knew that motorcaravan insurance was franchised out by Devitts but thought that Caravan insurance had stayed inhouse.
Nothing in the magazine about this? When did it happen ?
0 -
They still offer the two types but they are now inhouse. No idea when it changed, but when ours renewed in January it was as Caravan Cover. This was made clear at the time, although I certainly didn't appreciate the implications. We cancelled in March when we bought the MH, otherwise I would be thinking long and hard. It's not so much the caravan value side that would worry me but the third party liability, which could potentially be an eye watering sum, if the worst happened.
1 -
well my OH was an insurance broker for many years and she is not fazed by anything in the policy document. of my 3 claims one was a claim against me , one of those fake accidents, despite my objections and my instance that i wanted my day in court, the insurance company paid up on the morning of the court hearing, stating it was the route of least resistance.
I still think the club as more to loose than gain from disputing or refusing to pay out on a claim, unless they really are dubious claims. Don't have any HP agreements so the differance between insurance/cover will not affect me in that respect, but if in doubt I would get the club to contact the HP company to sort it out, pretty sure it is just a simple misunderstanding as yet again there are probably 1000's out there with club insurance and HP agreements, and if not now, going forward the club would loose masses of revenue if potential customers with HP agreements were ruled out.
0 -
The club did not cover insurance payments previously they were covered by an insurance company. Devitts handled claims on the behalf of that insurance company following the insurance companies direction. The changes happened about 12 months ago. Devitts are still handling claims but on behalf of CMC and following CMC's guidelines who are the ones to finally authorise payment.
The club do no longer pass insurance business to an insurance company but instead offer 5Cs etc as cover but not insurance other than legal cover if you choose it.
The changes happened a little over 12 months ago and only applies to caravans as other cover for houses, motorhomes et al are passed to a proper insurance company - not a mutual
0 -
.it would be good if there was a clear and open statement addressing any concerns around some of the terminology in the documents.
agreed, and if the club want to protect a valuable revenue stream then they should certainly aleviate the concerns of members, personally i trust my OH but i know not all members have ex insurance brokers to hand.
0 -
It's not so much the caravan value side that would worry me but the third party liability, which could potentially be an eye watering sum, if the worst happened.
Exactly my concern should the CMC refuse a third party claim. The loss of a £25k caravan would not really affect my lifestyle. A lost court case could bankrupt
1 -
Hi everyone, Just to let you know I have forwarded this discussion to my colleagues on the insurance team today so we can provide you with further information.
1 -
Rowena, Can you please ask your colleagues to confirm whether this cover will not require the payment of 12% Insurance Premium Tax and if so whether HMRevenue and Customs have agreed to this tax avoidance.
3 -
Hello everyone,
Below is a response from the Club that hopefully covers off the many points that have been queried or raised in this discussion.
The Club moved from Caravan Insurance to Caravan Cover on 1 March 2018. At that time the Club made no changes to the terms and conditions that had been in place through the insurers but brought the product in-house within a discretionary mutual scheme. For a discretionary mutual to apply only members of the Club can have the product. Discretionary mutual schemes operate in the same way as with the principle of insurance, which is that everyone purchasing the product pays their premiums, from which claims are paid for the few who are unlucky enough to need to make a claim.
The reason for the change was to enable us to become more flexible for members and also to help us to make more money from a shrinking and increasingly competitive market. As all money that is made goes straight back into the Club to deliver sites and services for our members, this revenue is extremely important to members of the Club. By operating a discretionary mutual the Club are also able to pay claims that are not always covered in the cover wording. We exercise our discretion where insurers may not i.e. we can be more flexible. It is certainly not our intention to not pay claims and our current paid rate remains in line with what it was before the change.
To make sure the Club is able to pay out claims should these be more than the premiums collected, an insurance policy was taken out to protect members. The Group Policy that has been taken out with Builders Direct SA is wider than simply protecting members should the Club not have enough money to pay a claim. If the Club does not pay a valid claim, Builders will pay the claim. Having the Group Policy also means members can go to the FOS if a claim is not paid.
The Club itself continues to be regulated by the FCA and the Caravan Cover is subject to the Financial Services and Markets Act but Caravan Cover is not a regulated product within the FCA’s remit. Other Mutuals such as NFU and LV operate under registered insurance companies (note the general insurance arm of the latter will have become part of Allianz by the end of the year). This allows them to provide motor insurance products, which are a legal requirement. Other types of cover such as cover for caravans, homes, pets, travel are not legally compulsory and therefore can be covered under different structures to insurance, such as a discretionary mutual.
Since going live with the Caravan Cover product we have updated the cover wording twice. The first change, effective 1 March 2019, was to put the two cover options into the one cover booklet, which we did so members can see the alternative cover that is available and to reduce costs. The second update was to improve the clarity of the wording in some places, including around the discretionary mutual. We are continuing to look at how we can make more improvements to the cover and underwriting. While we are unable to now get a Defaqto rating because that only operates within the insurance space, the 5Cs product was 5* rated and we continue to ensure our Caravan Cover product meets that level of criteria. The Club continues to offer a no claims bonus on its Caravan Cover product.
Regarding the concern around acceptance of Caravan Cover by storage facilities or HP companies, the Club would be happy to pick this up directly with companies if there are any with concerns, as the cover should meet the needs of these companies.
In respect of the issue with the email addresses the documentation is being sent from, we are working to change all of these to cover@camc.com; however due to the system update to improve the booking process some of these could not be done until that has gone live and bedded in. We hope to have all email addresses changed within the next few months and apologise for the confusion this has caused some members.
And finally, regarding the HMRC point raised, we have recently had a tax inspection and the HMRC are aware the caravan cover is a discretionary mutual scheme.
We hope this answers the questions and concerns being raised but please do get in touch directly with the Club if you have any specific queries.
4 -
Hi Rowena
A quick question about the no claims bonus, if we were to switch to a true insurance company, would they accept we had a good record with a company that provided cover rather than insurance?
1 -
TBH after reading Rowena's reply, we definitely would prefer a proper insurance company where one can escalate an issue.
We are now glad that we changed to Towergate even though it meant paying the 12% insurance tax. At least we have peace of mind.
I guess the choice is up to the individual or not whether they want to take the chance.
0
