Pin 9
Hello All. We have recently bought a new caravan that is fitted with an Alko ATC system. We were on the dealers change over pitches today (Sunday) and were hitched up and ready to go, but when I connected the electrics, it was obvious that the ATC wasn't working (no led's or noise). We had been on the pitch for two days, and the Dealer sited the van for us to collect. Fortunately one of the dealers change over people were with another customer so I collared him. He was very helpful and pluged the caravan electrics into a portable test rig that proved the ATC, was working but not getting power from the car. So when I got home I did some googling and realised that pin 9 may not be connectec. So easy I thought test it with a multi meter, but then I read that if my car has a Cat Buz ? Using an ordinary meter may ruin the ECU, and a special meter has to be used, the car is two years old. I intend to have power supplied to pin 9 done professionaly, but would have liked to have satisfied myself that that is the problem first. I assumed when the tow bar and wiring were fitted, all relevant pins would have been connected, but after looking on the Honda website direct 12v supply is an option.
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did you ask for dedicated wiring when they fitted the bar and electrics as if you did then that should have been done automatically, everything working for towing a caravan. did you check that the charging of the caravan battery and the fridge was working when connected to the car.
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Hmm! Had the same problem with our Antara, amongst 1,000 other problems with that car. Apparently we only tow caravans 10 miles so we don't need the battery charging or the fridge. That is what the dealer said to me, the tried to charge me another £325 to add the one wire. I did it myself for £2.
Anyway, back to pin 9, that is the direct +12v from the battery. Pin 10 is the caravan fridge. You can test it with a normal voltmeter for voltage, it won't make any difference to the can bus system.
Sadly, some manufacturers don't supply the pin 9 wiring and a separate wire has to be installed, which is a simple job. Why they don't supply that wire is beyond me, and to be honest, if the tow bar fiter didn't fit it, I would go back to them and demnd they fit it.
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Thanks lornalou 1 and Ds3 for your helpful input. Well to be honest I dont renember a conversation as to wether I wanted the loom wired for battery charging or fridge. I assumed that would be a given. We have travelled fairly long distances and frozen items have still been frozen at the end of our journy so I would assume that the fridge is powered. I am going to speak to honda this morning, the tow bar fitting was out sorced ,but If the fitter hasn't wired up pin nine, after fifteen months I suspect even if he agreed to do it, it would be a rushed job, so I will cut my losses and have it done elsewhere, or do some more research and do it myself.
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I`m having problems with my Volvo XC60 (2018) which I can`t get to the bottom of. The ATC powers up following "waking up" the car but each start of the engine (fuel, ferry, breaks etc) with the LED already green results in an interruption to the permanent supply to pin 9 and the ATC self tests again. The fridge defrosts in hot weather on a five hour run though the fridge light is on and no indication for low voltage.
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It isn't an issue, I was just trying to illiterate to Tigi that lights showing on the fridge may no necessarily mean that it is cooling. Up date on my pin 9 issue. I tested pin 9 ignition off, and pin 10 engine running and got no readings. However when I had a look in the back of the socket both pins were wired up. There are no extra leads connected to the battery. I can only think that the loom came pre wired to the socket, and 9 and ten are not connected through. I spoke to honda, and as I expected they said fridge and power were options and I couldn't have asked for them, but they will look at the parts invoice. After doing a bit of reserch it is obvious that pin 10 has to be wired if you intend wiring pin 9, so I dont think I will tackle it myself.
Second update. I literally have just been contacted by Honda, and they say that the price I was charged for the towbar indicates that The 12v supply isnt connected they have said that because there may have been some misunderstanding they will retro fit the 12v feed for £95.00 plus VAT.
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Tell them there is no misunderstanding, the European standard 13-pin trailer connector (ISO 11446) is a published standard and applies.
Tell them that it reasonable for you to expect this standard to be followed and that they have no excuse not to expect that you have half a job done. They have the technical capability to fit these circuits so ask them why they do not follow the accepted standard.
Why car companies and aftermarket fitters think its OK to only fit some of the circuits is beyond me. Would it be acceptable to leave the brake lights and turn signal circuits out unless you pay more money?
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As much as I would like it not to be, but I have got what I paid for. The problem was that unbeknown to me the salesman only quoted me for a detatcable towbar and trailer electrics, If I had quotes fron independent towbar companies I probably would have realised that his quote was too low, but I wanted a dealer fit fow warrenty purposes. Now wether he didn't understand that I wanted the towbar for caravaning, or even know that there was extra wiring and man hours required, we will never know because he has moved on. Reading posts on other forums it seems to be normal to have wiring for a caravan as an option because of the extra manhours and wiring involved. I paid £590.00 for genuine Honda parts. It turns out that if I'd requested the full caravan package the bill would have been around the £800.00 mark. So £95.00 to put it right seems fair.
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When I bought my last car it already had a towbar fitted, however the previous owner only had the 12N socket fitted. I paid a local independent towbar place £100 to swap it for a fully wired 13 pin socket and that was about 7 yrs ago, so that makes your quote of £95 about right, especially from a franchised dealer.
It's still an expensive few feet of wire & a relay ....
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I think this is 50/50. the op ask for a towbar and electrics and that's what he got. It would work legally for a trailer and the caravan. Like i said earlier the op didn't ask for dedicated electrics but also the dealer didn't ask what the towbar was going to be used for thus giving him the likleyhood that the extra connections would be required. There again when having a towbar fitted by the dealership would you expect then to ask what weight of caravan you will be towing and saying it's to heavy for the car. They don't care as it's your responsability to find this out yourself.
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I have been to Volvo today and they will be making a technical request so will post what they say. The towbar is made by ACPS Automotive who I`ve never heard of, a multi-national, they seem to be or have been connected with Bosal who made a previous towbar I had. The towbar quality itself is excellent, far better than a previous Westfalia . The interruption to the permanent supply is more nuisance than anything else.
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Hi, just seen this and it brought back to mind our experience. In 2013 we bought a new Audi Q5 with a factory fit bar and electrics which, having been told of potential issues with missing pins in the 13 pin socket, had made clear was for 'towing a caravan'.
The day before collection I was called by the dealer and asked what I wanted the electrics to do and it transpired that my car would need a 'supplementary wiring kit' costing almost £300.
In the long run Audi UK agreed to pay for this but its the reason this happened that caused me to post.
As Phishing posted above there is a standard for 13 pin. It says;
ISO 11446:2004 specifies a 13-pole electrical connector between towing and towed vehicles with 12 volt electrical system.
The eventual conclusion, I replaced the car in 2017 and had issues then as well, is that as German caravans do not have a 12 volt system as we know it, via a battery-they use damped transformers to supply 12v once connected to mains electrics-they do not supply sockets with all the required pins for supplying a caravan with British style electrics.
If you want this you need the 'supplementary wiring kit' and good luck in finding a dealer who knows what it is for. We had to tell Audi UK, after being fortunate to have another member who had made me aware, what I needed and the part number!
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Strongly disagree.
He did ask for towbar and 13 pin electrics. The dealer took his money.
A contract exists between them that implies product that is fit for purpose is supplied.
What the OP then decides to tow is totally irrelevant to this contract as he has the right to expect the towbar meets the published towing limits for the vehicle and meets relevant standards.
The dealer is obliged to fit components that are fit for purpose, in this case legislation and standards apply. They have to fit mechanical parts that meet the standards and electrical parts that meet the standards.
They do not consider using a towbar that does not meet the requirements of the approval standard so what makes them think they can do this for the electrical parts.
Taking this to the extreme they could use low tensile bolts that can only tow small trailers unless you pay more for carbon steel bolts.
You use the term 'extra connections', they are not extra connections they are specified and required under the published standard to allow correct operation of the product by the OP.
The standard shows Pin9 and Pin 10 populated, there is no option for these to be left blank, if they are then the supplier has failed to meet the requirements of the standard and thus supplied goods that are not fit for purpose.
The supplier as the responsible technical knowledge holder is responsible. The OP is not an auto electrician.
The club should take a lead on this and challenge the auto makers in court.
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I didn't buy my car new, but my ML has a factory fit tow bar & everything ie charging & fridge, works as you'd expect. (even the caravan's led front marker lights that used to rapid flash when towed with the R Class's after fit tow bar)
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No.
But it only takes one case to set president and the car companies and aftermarket fitters would settle way before it got to court to avoid this.
Be nice if they started a campaign though.
Bite the hand that feeds them comes to mind!
Why not publish a list of car companies and aftermarket who guarantee fitment to the standard for the price they quote and name and shame those that don't?
I am surprised that automotive company legal representation has not applied functional safety review to this issue. They may concluded that if an accident happened, due to the failure of a caravan braking system (ATC), due to the negligence of the towbar supplier not meeting the published standard, that they would be liable and possibly charged with negligence or worse in the case of a death. This should be pointed out to them.
Failure of a critical safety system because they decided not to fit the components needed for safe operation is not acceptable.
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Not in this case. The driver asks for a 12pin towbar fitment and is not responsible for the safe operation of this, the supplier is.
This is because the customer is deemed in law not to be a technical expert and not to have the knowledge or equipment to be able to make a reasonable judgement as to the compliance with an engineering standard. The supplier is.
This does not negate the drivers responsibility to be safe on the highway but if the company contracted to fit the parts (whatever they are, tyres, brakes, towbar) fits sub standard parts then they may be liable to prosecution in the event of an accident attributed to the supply and fitment of those parts.
In this case I suggest that not fitting the supply to the braking system for reasons of cost saving to them is not acceptable.
Maybe we expect too much from the club as a body that is prepared to lobby on behalf members but they do have a legal team. The expectation to use this for the benefit of members is reasonable.
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like I said in earlier post, if customer asked for a towbar and electrics then that is what he got with all lights working. If he had asked for dedicated electrics with all pins working ( so ATC would work) then its the supplier that's at fault for not fitting what was asked for.
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Can you advise where in the published standard that it is an option to leave bits out?
This a legal document that defines the required circuits for safe operation of the equipment.
There is no option of not having these circuits fitted.
The reason for that is that the OP may not need these circuits for his current rig. He then sells the car to someone who does have ATC fitted.
Due to the fact that it doesn't have ATC feed fitted they crash and die.
This is why it is not an option.
There is not such accepted terminology as towbar electrics, dedicated electrics etc, they are made up by the suppliers.
It is an MOT fail not to have the correct towbar wiring on a vehicle, i.e. pins 9 and 10 are not populated.
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Then why is it a popular question asked on here that BMW/Volvo/Audi and others have not fitted the relevant pins when fitting the electrics at the dealers. that means all owners could take the dealers to court for not fitting to relevant standards and it would be the new owners fault if they didn't check that the ATC worked when buying the caravan. wouldn't you check this and all lights worked before driving off and question why if they didn't work. I most certainly would and do.
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