German v English Caravans (New)
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Couple of points. Firstly it is true that the CAMC will have the data from the survey. Trouble is they bottled publishing it any meaning full way. I gross betrayal of its members in my opinion.
Rant over.
The latest paractical caravan report gave Adria the top satisfaction score of 89.2% Eriba, 88.8% and Knaus 88.2 % of the UK caravans Coachman 80.5% and Eldiss (Erwin Hymer UK if it makes you feel better) 70.4%. These figures are for new caravans and are claimed to statistically valid by Practical caravan btw.
Obviously an individual owner basically has a sample size of one. So if you purchase the very highest rated Caravan listed here then you have a 1 in 10 chance of being dissatisfied. If you buy the worst rated caravan the Eldiss, then you have a 7 in 10 chance of being satisfied. So on an individual level the differences are marginal. But aggregated together significant.
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We have ordered a 2018 model of the Knaus Starclass 565 caravan from a dealer in Norfolk and are awaiting delivery.
German vans tend to have sturdier construction than most UK makes, and several manufacturers now offer vans with the door on the 'British' side.
I have visited the Hymer factory and showroom in Bad Waldsee, Bavaria in the past, and have been impressed by the standard of service and customer care.
I know that Knaus say they will not allow collection of a new van from their factory, and will only discuss delivery with the dealer in the UK with whom you have placed the order.
Whether this is the case with other German manufacturers, I don't know.
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It is significant that the overseas manufacturers have all comparatively similar percentage satisfaction levels with the UK ones trailing lamentably behind.
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The survey was in conjunction with the C&CC who decided that with only just under 5% of replies in total being for non UK manufactured caravans that the numbers were not sufficient for any make to be statistIcly accurate. That is a matter of opinion, but the numbers were very low for any one make, but overall the club accepted that they did do very well.
Only Adria normally appear in the PC figures and they normally come first or second so certainly their record is good.
I am not disputing the figures but you do have to appreciate the low numbers involved.
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I Have 2017 Knaus 480 van. There are problems.
1 We ordered as a Extra a set of drawers at the front. Knaus did not supply cut cushions therefore impossible to make up double bed. Knaus expect you to remove cabinet every night. They have never said where it is to be stored.
I must say the UK agent did have at their expense cushions cut to suit.
Big problem is Battery Charger had original blow replacement blew in April this year still waiting for replacement.
I have to carry spare battery and a battery charger.
Agent doing all they can but Knaus don’t seem to be a hurry.
Van is very solid some things are excellent but let down by poor back up from Germany.
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I have a big problem with customer satisfaction surveys because it is well known that people who buy a minority brand (specialist, foreign, whatever) can have a tendency to take a positive view of its merits and ignore some of the faults. This is a well known psychological principle that has been extensively studied and is well proven. Essentially they are supporting their decision to purchase something that is not mainstream and which may be regarded as a poor choice by other people. So, the only proper study would involve warranty claims and that information is not readily available.
Having said that, I can well believe that German vans are constructed to a higher standard; they are much heavier and more expensive. The proprietary equipment of course is International so if your Dometic fridge packs up it could be on a British van or a German one. I do think that British vans have become so laden with equipment that the manufacturers have had to reduce the weight of the basic structure which has resulted in integrity problems.
I would certainly consider a foreign brand BUT it would be essential that there was a local reliable dealer who could back any warranty claim and get parts quickly. I can guarantee something will go wrong in three years, either minor or major and it’s no good travelling 200 miles to get it fixed then have arguments about whose fault it is.
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I'm not sure why this thread has been resurrected after two years, but since it has, I will add my experience and a few facts.
We previously owned a U3 Barcelona and had it from new, for 4 years and apart from a few minor warranty issues, the only real problem we had was a leaking shower tray which required removal of all the bathroom furniture to dry the floor out, resealing etc, which cost me just over £500.
In December 2018, we bought a new Knaus Starclass 695 and in the first five months of ownership, had more problems with it than in the fours years of owning the Bailey. They were, however, mostly issues with equipment, rather than the construction of the van itself.
The specification of the Knaus, in terms of equipment is almost identical to that of the Bailey - with the exception of no solar panel being fitted. Indeed, the Knaus has quite a few additional features over the Bailey - such as underfloor heating.
The MIRO is 10kg lighter than the Bailey, yet it has a payload of 360kg. However, the build quality inside is in a different league entirely and I'm not sure how Knaus manage to achieve that. No cheap and nasty plastic trim, substantial woodwork and top quality fixtures and fittings such as locks, hinges etc. The woodwork is not dark at all - I suspect the veneer is white American Oak and gives a very light and airy feel to the van.
The twin single beds are superbly comfortable - and huge - at nearly 3' wide and 6'10" long. Similarly, the end bathroom with not only shower, sink, toilet etc, has two full length and very deep wardrobes and has to be one of the largest bathrooms I have ever seen in a caravan.
The problems - the battery locker door wouldn't open without having to prise it open with a screwdriver and the van had to be returned to the dealer (400 mile round trip) to have it altered. Ironically, the battery locker is the only bit of the bodywork of the van made in the UK! The front chest of drawers was far too high to be able to use the table top comfortably and had to be lowered by removing the bed slats (which we would never use) which were housed underneath it. The Dometic toilet was absolute rubbish and we were plagued with various problems every time we used the van until eventually, the flush mechanism packed up altogether. At my (considerable) expense, I had the dealer change it for a tried and trusty Thetford and knowing what I know now, I would never buy another van with a Dometic toilet fitted. There were numerous other, irritating little things that went wrong, invariably fixed by myself with the dealer sending replacement parts as necessary.
Although the dealer is about 200 miles from home - and it was my choice to buy from them - they have been very good in rectifying the problems quickly but it has nevertheless been frustrating to have had them to deal with - especially considering the cost of the van.
So - although we remain delighted with the van - even German built ones are not without their problems and the fact that the dealer network is fairly sparse, travelling some distance to get problems sorted is almost inevitable. Hopefully, we have now got the 'teething' problems sorted!
I have read somewhere, that Knaus are no longer exporting UK spec vans, so we may have got one of the last.
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Thats an interesting concept. It makes no odds, in or out! Of course we should try to support locally built products but the fact is there is nothing left in this industry or the car industry that could be classified as wholly British . Then the quality question raises it head! That's where the problems begin. Having had both 'foreign' and 'home' built caravans/motorhomes I know where the quality lies. Also, there is no wholly British chassis cab motorhome built that I know of. Nor do I know of any caravan that is solely built with British components. We need them as much as they need us! I'm afraid it is the same across much of what is left of all our manufacturing industry.
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True. I don't know of any serious UK competition for AlKo chassis (German), Dometic appliances (Swedish), Polyplastic windows (Japanese), Hartal door and window fittings (German), Truma heating (German), Thetford (Dutch/US), Alde heating (Swedish), and so on. All the UK manufacturers do is to assemble all those foreign bits and pieces.
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We had MFI once😝😝. Mmmmm, all this is beginning to make sense now👍🏻
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agree with Micky....
although I see the latest Vauxhall Vivano is marketed as 'built in Britain'...Ellesmere Port?
but this van, if like its previous incarnations, is a collaboration with Nissan and Renault (I think) and are just badge engineered...
the Sevel project is the same process.
many manufacturers are loathe to take on the whole cost of a ground up development, despite model variations being much easier to create, and are happy to team up to cut cost and share technical input but reap shared profit....even Merc worked extensively with VW on the previous Sprinter/Crafter.
from a mid size MH base perspective it will undoubtedly be Sevel (fiat, PSA Citröen Peugeot), Merc, VW crafter, Renault or the new small MAN....so nothing UK...
as mentioned above, Major components like heating units, fridges and toilets will be from large continentals Thetford or dometic.
i guess the innards....like furniture and shower cabinets will be locally formed and put together and this is where the price level of the finished product makes all the difference...
a cheap van doesn't allow for expensive materials nor the many man hours required to carefully double screw and glue furniture together...ours has additional biscuit joints, all more complex to build but the rewards are immediately apparent.
i see that Frankia now have metal 'fixing rods' built into their non wood side, rear and roof panels to allow for the fixing of furniture....so no screws directly into balsa wood there..but they ain't cheap, smallest A class around £100k.
the uk MH market all seems be in the mid/lower range and you can't expect to get the same 'quality' for £40k-£50k (there ain't a lot left after you've costed the base unit and the various appliances) as you will for double that or more.
of course, there is the question of less continental dealers around compared to uk brands and does this impact....
well, yes if the van was full of faults and had to back every couple of months then a dealer on your doorstep will help (if his workshop diary can fit you in.....) but if the van is well built and reliable..??...perhaps not as important
our dealer is in Staffordshire but I haven't been back there in the 30 months we've had the van....
so, why there?
amazing deal, customer service second to none, terrific product.
ok, not quite perfect....I've fixed/modified a couple of small things and I've had to take the van to another, closer, dealer for a couple of small warranty jobs.....I just took my bike and cycled for the morning until I got the call to collect it...
so, distance can be a problem if things go bad....often.....
perhaps we've been lucky, but I've been in many a cheap van and loads are falling apart on the dealers forecourt....
so, as Micky (and others) have said, I also think I know where the (real, in depth) quality products come from, albeit at a price.
yes, it's a dilema but the uk producers really need to up their game to compete.
the latest Swift Kontiki comes in at just shy of £100k with a couple of options yet the interior seems to be 'built' like one of its £40k products.
they even have a 'lifestyle' (motorbike garage) version for nearly £150k!
this puts is squarely against top line continental vans from Frankia, Carthago, Hymer, N+B, the cheaper Concorde and Morelo vans et al....
just shows how tough it is to mix it with those who've had a 'quality' reputation for decades.
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"a cheap van doesn't allow for expensive materials nor the many man hours required to carefully double screw and glue furniture together...ours has additional biscuit joints, all more complex to build but the rewards are immediately apparent."
This is what I meant when I said the build quality of our Knaus was in a different league from most of the British vans we had looked at. For example, the curved corners of the beds are solid wood and finger-jointed into the panels. The shelf-edging is post-formed trimmed wood instead of that tacky plastic that the Bailey had. The lock on the bathroom door has a magnetic 'bolt' so that it only engages when the door is closed, thus preventing you catching your arm on it. These things, and many other features all add up to give an overall impression of quality.
I am, however, intrigued as to how they do this and still achieve a MIRO more or less the same as comparable Brit vans.
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LOCK DOWN QUIZ.
Hi All, I hope you are all well and I'm new to this site so be gentle with me please but hope you enjoy my WHAT CARAVAN DID I BUY? quiz.
The 1st prize will be a free drink of your choice after you've either helped me on the site to park the darned thing on our maiden voyage OR, helped me get onto the hard shoulder after it has fallen to bits on its maiden voyage.
I followed and enjoyed all of the posts relating to the contentious original topic of German v English (British) caravan prior to purchasing my latest caravan. They're ALL certainly in demand at the moment so well done to everyone who managed to buy one before COVID struck and the salesmen earned a bumper bonus year!
Firstly, it would be good to know what the original post by Mfield actually purchased in the end and any good/bad experience since which will hopefully reignite the John Cleese (Fawlty Towers) type banter seen to date.
Here's my quiz....My wife and daughter did all the leg work over 2 years prior to our family purchase, by looking and lying on beds at all makes and models. Then when they'd narrowed it down, I just did my usual manly stuff (as I do with anything) when the salesman left me alone to look i.e. pulling and pushing things and looking underneath, behind cabinets and beds with a phone torch and comparing all the load and weight plates and checking out forums like this. (Wow....some smaller vans are much heavier than some visually bigger vans).
I can personally say that extra weight doesn't necessarily mean better than lean and mean (I'm the former nowadays) but if it's actual substance over bling then it always gets my vote. I've stopped putting "go faster stripes" on my cars years ago and wouldn't choose a car for instance because of it's Bluetooth or Media package (but it can sway me). I do however want it to be as safe and sound "home from home" as possible, and I want it to last me a good number of years before I dip into another ISA or unless I win the lottery in the meantime.
I'm retired and more a petrol head than caravanner and have enjoyed loads of exotica over the years (always 2nd hand BTW) from Rover to Audi, Noble to Morgan, Caterham(s) to G Wagen, Aston to Porsche(s) for example and, as such, this history has helped me to choose my van.
CLUES
1.My towing vehicle BTW will be a Toyota 200 Landcruiser diesel which will pull absolutely anything and again should last me for many years whilst being a capable off-roader to fuel my other passion. ( I was supposed to be heading for Morocco next month on an Overland trip but Covid has put paid to that for now!).
2. It's a 4 Berth van.
3. It's 2013.
4. I purchased it in the UK off a dealer.
Feel free to ask any other questions or simply wait to take the Micky about my choice when I give the answer out later this month.
best regards, UTC.
ps, I'd better get joining the Caravan Club now!!!!!
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