Who is Nick Lomas kidding ?
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The fact that it's being discussed is not in doubt, but other than anecdotal somewhat second party comment this does not fill me with confidence that the decision has been made. I guess even wardens can speculate, deliberate and offer their opinion too! Afterall, they too are only human aren't they and as you say we await as we really do know not!
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Difficult one W2G, I'm just prepared to wait.
We live in times where many opinions are deliberately presented as facts and fake news is used for many reasons. Not nice I know but facts unfortunately, like Chinese whispers, can also appear as 'facts' along the way. I recognise this can happen! We still wait for the definative facts from on high!
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Mickysf
I agree that it is difficult to second guess what might be going on but by the nature of forums there will always be speculation until confirmed or otherwise. Most on here don't understand why the Club is not a bit more up front in giving more detailed information about the level of cancellations both within the 72 hour period or over a wider period of time. I could be wrong but if the booking system was working perfectly smoothly by which I mean the the 72 hour cancellations were within acceptable numbers and other cancellations were also fairly limited there would be no point in the introduction of deposits. All I ask if the Club decide to go down this route is that the are open and honest with the reasons for the decision. If they turn round and say we have listened to members that would not be good enough for me, I would want far more detail.
David
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For me there are two issues with deposits...
The first is that those of us who, for example, go away for 2 weeks and maybe only visit one or two sites only have to find 1 or 2 deposits. Those of us who like to move on regularly during those same 2 weeks may stay on twice as many sites so need to find twice as many deposits at the point of booking for the same length of holiday....
The second problem, is that deposits do give an advantage to those of us who happen to have sufficient funds available, particularly at the start of each year when I imagine many plan and book trips for later in the year. For us, January & February is when we tend to make bookings for later in the year, it is also always the leanest time for us financially, so paying lots of deposits now just isn't an option...
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I agree with second para but would add the need to book even earlier for times like Easter. In the recent past we have planned our breaks from April to end of July around end November/early December and booked on 'frenzy day' There are none of the sites which are generally considered to be honey pots on our lists. If we wanted a site over part of Easter weekend we would book those first. Also when we wished to include Cadeside as convenient to meet friends in Exeter that was booked first as there were only 18 pitches.
This year I we actually did our planning at start of November. When I looked out of interest on 5th November our first site (Grassington) was showing less than 5 pitches left and we booked a month earlier than usual. A few days later the site was showing fully booked. Anybody wanting such events as flower shows or air displays may well need to book 12 months ahead. The rolling programme may suit some but not me Justus as it does not suit us to plan next year whilst we are still using the touring bookings from previous year. But that is us.
My take on your first para is slightly different Justus. any sites seem to charge deposits similar to C&CC with a £25 or 25% of total fees being levied and so proportionally the same whether booking 4 nights or 47 weeks.
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Personally I'm ambivalent about deposits because I only use club sites once or twice a year and generally make last minute bookings (day before or same day) so deposits wouldn't really figure very high. I think it would really depend on the t&c's attached to deposits whether we would change our use of club sites. I'm guessing the downside of introducing deposits for the club is the potential administrative nightmare after all as this website goes to show their IT systems are not top notch 21st century are they
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As I have posted previously when this old chestnut arises, the simple solution is for a member's card details to be held by the club and then, if appropriate, a penalty charge of say £25 is taken upon 'no shows/late cancellations'. No requirement then for actual deposits. The only other tweak I would advocate is to extend the cancellation period to 5/7 days.
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As somebody who does not abuse the system I would be quite happy for zero tweaks although I can see why some might prefer a slightly longer notice than 3 days. Without the data it is difficult to comment. I have little doubt that the lack of minimum booking periods and deposits does attract a number of site users to use CC sites in preference to alternatives
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I agree, particularly with the recent drive to attract the many more motorhomers we see on sites today who probably favour the booking pattern you describe.
Also, there are a few who no doubt can afford the outlays described but I'll bet there are also those who can not afford the hit too. Yes, the club wins out but the problem remains and some genuine non offending members will be disadvantaged.
As you say, we don't have the data which may substantiate the need for considering deposits. What statistic would justify the introduction of deposits, evidence of 10%, 5% 0.5% of bookings being late cancellations? What defines late cancellations, 1month, 1 week, 72hrs? If refunds of deposits were considered what special circumstances would these include and how could they be proven? Would the introduction really have that desired effect, would that desired effect be significant, whatever that may mean, and what would the downsides be of which I can see several, particularly for some younger members/potential members but I also see some for us older long term members.
For me these are the real issues that need considering not just some justification based on speculation and that old chestnut which suggests they will end all speculative and block bookings regardless of us not knowing the real impact or lack on the booking systems for those who plan long term, those who plan at shorter notice or those who are more ad hoc. We could just be throwing the baby out with the bath water. May be, as far as late cancellations are concerned, the occurance is really insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Maybe, the number of fellow members involved in deliberately cancelling late this is may be just involve a 'handful' and maybe some of this number can also afford to lose that deposit even if they are introduced.
So many questions.
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You are not alone in suggesting this course of action. It would also equal things up between those that cancel late and those that leave a site early and have to forfeit one days site fees. However how many would be comfortable having card details stored I don't know. At the end of the day if the Club consider we have a problem they will go for deposits as that is a system used elsewhere and is easy enough to understand. If you have already paid a deposit you know its at risk people might not so readily accept a charge being deducted especially if there were emergency circumstances attached to a cancellation. A deposit is a fairly simple solution to the problem.
David
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If they went down the route of deposits, a more logical step would be a fixed deposit, say £25 and the balance taken automatically from your credit card a month before. Similar to booking a ferry. It would make checking in, particularly at busy sites, more straightforward.
I do point out however, I am not in favour of deposits, don't subscribe to the block booking paranoia and feel they would be expensive to implement.
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Does that presage a hotel booking type system, where if you book early and pay at the time of booking, you get a cheaper rate than if you make a booking which can be cancelled or if you book later?
With the travelodge model, you pay at the time of booking of whatever type. However, the more expensive flexible types can be altered without penalty, whilst the cheaper rate cannot be altered and your payment is non refundable.
Trouble is don't we have enough price bands at the moment.😂
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"our biggest focus for 2019 will be to make further improvements and changes ........ offering deals and discounts for those who plan early and make a firm booking".
This may well have been in relation to the integration of overseas bookings into the main system as I note that CC is already trumpeting 'save up to 20%' for such bookings with a link to : https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/overseas-holidays/special-offers/site-offers/early-bird-discounts/
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The flip side is very cheap deals for those last minute bookings which gets 'bums on what would be empty seats'. That's also common place in the airline, holiday industry.
I also ask what constitutes 'improvements' and who benifits from said 'improvements'? We are a diverse membership and changes may not be benificial to all. Who decides who is to gain and who will loose?
Also, what is a booking? Would one visit to the booking be counted as a when several sites are booked or would each individual site booked along that tour generate a deposit of its own? Same amount of consecutive nights in one senario could cost a little to some but in the other a very significant amount would be incurred.
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personally, I don't think CC has the IT capacity to design, implement and test thoroughly any of the variations being discussed....
im not saying there aren't some interesting ideas being floated but I wouldn't want to be on the end of their 'interesting' IT solution.
moving away from the one year change, fixed price system they've had for years into capacity driven, multiple price changes, along with different deposit/refund/cancellation modes doesn't bear thinking about.
if this huge change of core was being considered it would need a visionary IT Director and several key managers in place who had much previous experience of how these things work....in practice....
I'm all for flexibility but.....
the alternative would be to move to an industry leading 'padkage' that has all the complexity and flexibility already built in....I doubt if, these days, a new hotel chain or holiday company would sit down and design their systems from scratch.....60 years ago, yes, but today....something of the shelf that could be tweaked to each company's requirements.
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