Pollution

Kennine
Kennine Forum Participant Posts: 3,472
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edited May 2018 in General Chat #1

In this age of anti-polution is it OK to use log burners??. 

K

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  • SteveL
    SteveL Club Member Posts: 12,302 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #2

    I think although they are polluting the idea is that new trees are planted to replace those burnt, and these in turn soak up CO2. Where as fossil fuels are not offset. 

  • mickysf
    mickysf Forum Participant Posts: 6,474 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #3

    Deisel in one 'fashion' one day, diesel out the next. Crop, burn, plant and then plant more than used I thought was the answer to carbon recycling. But this is not the issue, it's more to do with air quality in certain areas and specific locations. One log burner in a remote rural setting with virtually no traffic pollution is not a problem but high density urban areas where air quality is already not the best a is.

  • Justus2
    Justus2 Forum Participant Posts: 897
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    edited May 2018 #4

    I think it is better to burn seasoned wood, from managed woodland, than leave it to rot. Doing so saves consumption of other fuels especially gas, which is not replaceable.

  • DavidKlyne
    DavidKlyne Club Member Posts: 13,858 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #5

    I think Mickysf has hit the nail on the head in that there are specific areas, nearly always in densely built up areas, where air pollution is very bad and is killing people. The problem with regulation is that it's not very good at making distinctions between bad and good areas so tends to legislate totally. You could leave it up to local councils but then you get a massive variation in regulation. Probably wood burning stoves, and open fires,  should be banned in densely populated areas and more congestion charges to try and control traffic pollution. No doubt it would be as popular as snow in July!!!

    David

  • Goldie146
    Goldie146 Club Member Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #6

    If we didn't have log burners (or the open fires they replaced), we would have no heating. Not everyone has a viable alternative.

    I suppose solid fuel Aga's are also on a future proscribed list. So no cooker or hot water then!

  • Rocky 2 buckets
    Rocky 2 buckets Forum Participant Posts: 7,101
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    edited May 2018 #7

    +1👍🏻. Here it is either. . . .Wood, oil or electricity. Wood it is & wood it will stay😊

  • Tinwheeler
    Tinwheeler Forum Participant Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #8

    Some councils impose smokeless zones, some don’t. Would that not be a way to go so that councils can make the decision in areas where a ban is needed while areas of low pollution can be left alone?

    We've seen so many cases of volte-face over the years that I wonder how long before diesel and wood burning become the in thing again.undecided

  • Takethedogalong
    Takethedogalong Forum Participant Posts: 17,040 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #9

    This is London getting its frillies in a twist again! Outside of London, and maybe one or two other population spike cities, there isn't a particular problem. I think politicians would be better dealing with all the murders, assaults and drug dealing before they start waving a broom at those of us out in the sticks happily getting on with living a nice life! 

    We burn well seasoned wood and smokeless fuel in our certified and correctly installed stove. If only we could get our hands on some of the wood Sheffield City Council has deemed surplus to the environment.....

  • mickysf
    mickysf Forum Participant Posts: 6,474 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #10

    Our new home is totally electricity. Heating, water, cooking, lighting etc, no alternatives. Thing is our fuel bill is, for a number of reasons, a quarter of that in our old home which was gas, solid fuel (including wood) and electricity. We now have an app for the TV which shows a wood fire burning and crackling. Doesn't quiet cut the mustard, mind!🔥

  • Oneputt
    Oneputt Club Member Posts: 9,144 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #11

    Yes

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman Forum Participant Posts: 2,367
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    edited May 2018 #12

    Its like all these fads.Who in their right mind would install a wood burner in an urban area and pay through the nose for wood to burn? The same ones who use a 4x4 or large SUV to take the kids to school. The only sensible place is the countryside with free wood access, but what do I, a yokel know.

  • JVB66
    JVB66 Forum Participant Posts: 22,892
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    edited May 2018 #13

    So truewink

  • Kennine
    Kennine Forum Participant Posts: 3,472
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    edited May 2018 #14

    Many thanks for your input folks.  The subject has been on the news recently and I don't think any decisions have been taken yet. 

    smile

  • Rocky 2 buckets
    Rocky 2 buckets Forum Participant Posts: 7,101
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    edited May 2018 #15

    They haven’t K👍🏻, I checked my area on the BBC ‘pollution checker’ scores from 1 to 6, my area is a 1 so I don’t see a ban in my or my Children’s lifetime👍🏻😊

  • JVB66
    JVB66 Forum Participant Posts: 22,892
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    edited May 2018 #16

    Our area in Hertfordshire is also a one out of six and we are two mile from A1M motorway and never venture out during the nightmare of morning and evening "rush hours"surprised

  • Navigateur
    Navigateur Club Member Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #17

    All this baning of this and that because of pollution can be dealt with by a simple straightforward principal. Simply limit the population density to what the environment can support. Perhaps 12 people to an acre would be a good starting point.

  • cyberyacht
    cyberyacht Forum Participant Posts: 10,218
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    edited May 2018 #18

    I'm down on the coast and, unsurprisingly score 1. My daughter lives in Putney and even there is only 2, although Wansdworth overall is 3. An industrial city like Sheffield doesn't appear to be badly polluted, so what criteria is actually being applied?

    Stand close to a queue of traffic anywhere in a city during the rush hour with a bus and a couple of lorries and it will seem pretty grim. Traffic congestion seems to be the real problem and the solution there is a decent efficient reasonably priced public transport system and we seem incapable of delivering that.

  • cariadon
    cariadon Forum Participant Posts: 861
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    edited May 2018 #19

    In order to remove pollution altogether we must go back to living like the cave dwellers.

  • Tinwheeler
    Tinwheeler Forum Participant Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #20

    Didn’t they burn wood on their fires?🤔

  • SteveL
    SteveL Club Member Posts: 12,302 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #21

    Not before about 1.5 million years ago.

  • Takethedogalong
    Takethedogalong Forum Participant Posts: 17,040 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #22

    True. But that's the irony, folks install one because they are desirable, then burn any old stuff to keep it cheap, or pay premium prices for wood. Same as buying a 4x4 that will never ever be taken on grass, let alone mud. So the circle completes when London coughs and the politicians decide we all need to be prevented from having items that are a necessity/cheaper alternative rather than a whim. 

    Pollution is ultimately about overcrowding. 

  • redface
    redface Forum Participant Posts: 1,701
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    edited May 2018 #23

    So it is suggested that councils should ban the burning of logs in urban areas?

    So what do us old folk do to keep warm in winter when we cannot afford inflated electricity or gas bills because of low, fixed incomes.

    I would say that others should go away, mind their own business, and leave me to enjoy my log fire rather than me having to freeze to death!

  • Rocky 2 buckets
    Rocky 2 buckets Forum Participant Posts: 7,101
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    edited May 2018 #24

    How do I get the best burn from my wood burning stove?

    To get the best burn from you wood burning stove, it's vital to use your stove's secondary air supply correctly...

    You might be thinking that now you have got your wood burner installed, you can happily burn as much wood as you like safe in the knowledge that you have done your bit for the environment. Well, actually that might not be the case!

    For a wood burning stove to efficiently convert wood fuel to maximum heat, the wood burner needs to be operated correctly so as to achieve the additional benefits that are not provided by an open fire. So what does this mean in practice? 

    Fundamentally for a wood burner to operate correctly you need to burn both the wood itself and the exhaust gases that are expelled during combustion, whereas in an open fire the exhaust gases are expelled from the chimney in an unburned state.

    This is why a wood burner is said to be 80% efficient (if operated correctly) and an open fire only 20% efficient, as 80% of the potential heat of an open fire goes up the chimney. Hence, if you don’t operate your wood burner correctly you will lose a lot of heat energy up the chimney and cause more air pollution than if the wood burner was used efficiently.

    Managing the primary and secondary airflows

    Help is at hand. To burn those exhaust gases you just need to correctly use the two air supply controls on your wood burning stove which control the primary and secondary air flows. The primary air supply arrives below your fire while the secondary air supply arrives in the form of air jets above your fire. The secondary air flow is the most important for achieving combustion of the exhaust gases.

    Use the primary air supply to get the fire going and burning hot, then shut it down. From this point on manage the fire by adjusting the secondary air flow.

    If this is done correctly you will see the flames dancing around and little jets of gas burning as they exit the wood. Another way to know you are getting a high level of secondary combustion is that your logs maintain their shape until completely burned (when you see this you will understand what I mean), plus the smoke coming out of the chimney will not smell.

    Another no-no with respect to your stove is burning wood slowly with minimal air supply. In addition to poor secondary burn, this approach will also lead to nasty black tar deposits in your flue, which increases the likelihood of a chimney fire, and deposits on the stove glass.  

    Taken from the yougen.co.uk web site👍🏻

  • Takethedogalong
    Takethedogalong Forum Participant Posts: 17,040 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #25

    You are a pyrophobe of deep understanding Rocky! Our house has it all, me brought up with fires and stoves all my life, OH who knows how to put them out............the technical discussions around our stove are fascinating!  laughing

  • Unknown
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    edited May 2018 #26
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  • Rocky 2 buckets
    Rocky 2 buckets Forum Participant Posts: 7,101
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    edited May 2018 #27

    That’s not fair, I’m a pyrophile👍🏻😊

  • paul56
    paul56 Forum Participant Posts: 937
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    edited May 2018 #28

    We've just bought a fire pit for the garden and lit it one evening recently while we sat with a glass or two putting the world to right. Haven't had a real fire for 40 years and it was glorious. Not waiting for the pollution police to call!

  • jennyc
    jennyc Forum Participant Posts: 957
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    edited May 2018 #29

    Wood burners add to atmospheric pollution through CO2, so in that sense, the belief that they can be Green through using sustainable fuels, is a bit of a fallacy. Which said, in moderation, some sins against nature might be forgiven. How would life be without BBQs, bonfire night and the odd open fire. I’m not a fan of cleaning out solid fuel fires, so we have a real flame gas, coal effect fire, which in its turn, is hugely less efficient than our gas fired central heating. Continuous use of our fire or a log burner, isn’t really fair on the atmosphere though.

  • Oneputt
    Oneputt Club Member Posts: 9,144 ✭✭✭
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    edited May 2018 #30

    Still need to know how they would police it, neighbours splitting on each other.  We burn kiln dried wood which is smokeless, even when first lit there is no visible smoke from the chimney.  How would I know when the council deemed it to be a high pollution day, would they text me?   Like so many other issues dreamed up by politicians a little more work on the practicalities needs to be undertaken before it is moved into yet more legislation.