When is a CL not a CL?
We've just been to two CLs over the last two weeks but was puzzled by numbers.
When we arrived at the first CL there were already 6 caravans pitched on individual hard standings with another available for us. Additionally there were another two caravans arguably just outside what could have been considered the boundary of the CL. All of us had EHUs and plenty of space between units (more than on a main club site) so the additional units didn't bother us at all. Incidentally, this 'unique' CL has been mentioned, in a positive way, in an article in the club magazine so is known to E.G..
The second site had EHUs and generously sized hard standings for 6 outfits plus another two H/S with hook-ups beyond the confines of the CL. There were only five caravans during our week's stay. Again, there was more than adequate space between outfits. At this second site they displayed their license which covered a maximum of 8 outfits so would this mean that they could legally have 6 outfits within the CL confines plus two additional ones 'over the wall'?
It may be that the first CL had a license allowing for more than five outfits but if so it wasn't on display.
I won't mention where these CLs are as I would certainly like to pay a return visit at some time.
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The CL's which are CMC refistered are for 5 vans only and breaking this limit can result in closure by the club. Not sure about your description of the license showing 8 outfits. In fact I have never ever seen a license on display.
Some sites will seem to have more than five pitches and the owner will say that the extra pitches give the member a choice. Others will openly flaut the rule to maximise takings
Some sites will limit members to 5 pitches but may have a small licensed site adjacent. I know of one in Devon that is a commercial site with just a roped off area in one corner for a cl.
It is a much discussed subject and judging by your last sentence it is a situation that doesn't bother you and that is your choice
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I'm aware that some CL,s hold a CMC licence for a 5 unit site , some also hold local tourist board licence for a further 5 units so they tend to have 2 separate pitching areas .
Small indepentant sites can also have a 5 unit CS /CL licence too.👍
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We stayed on a CL in North Yorkshire a couple of years ago on which there were 10 vans. It was a lovely site with acres of space and in a light-hearted way, I asked the owner how he managed it. He then told me that the site was actually two CLs and all that was dividing them was a newly planted hedge about 18" high - but that was obviously sufficient to satisfy the powers that be.
It was only £11 per night - with a toilet and the usual facilities - and when I went to pay, the wife returned some of what I gave her and told me I got a discount for paying for seven nights! Plus, there was a village pub just across the road.
What more could you ask for?
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How long before they leave the network. Makes sense to put infrastr cture in for more than 5 when there is plenty of space. Its the system that pushes Cl owners to have more than 5 just to recoup their expenditure. Like the first poster I would not report a Cl if there was plenty of space
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The second site you mention certainly had 6 generous pitches and 2 pitches just outside the cl site at the entrance , like yourself it didn't bother me as there was plenty space and weren't on top of other pitches. Nice to chat to you about European touring on sunday morning :-)
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I find it strange that people know by accepting more than 5 vans CLs are putting the whole issue of the club's right to issue exemption certificates at risk but they still come on here and talk about the offending sites without being prepared to tell the club about it officially.
Either report them or keep quiet but dropping hints and discussing the issue without naming names is doing no one any favours. As it is, we view every site reviewed by those commenting they've come across overcrowding with deep suspicion.
Am I mistaken in thinking this isn’t the first time the OP has raised the subject? My apology if I’ve confused him with someone else.
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I understand that, DD, but wouldn’t it be better to keep completely quiet rather than cast aspersions? Half a story helps no one, not us, not the club and not the CLs whose names we can probably deduce with a little effort.
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Thanks, DD. That is exactly what it was, a question about whether a licensed site can include within its allowed numbers, a CL..
As far as the first site is concerned it is on a small farm and quite obviously not affluent by any stretch of the imagination. The farm runs a small number of livestock for which they are still having to buy winter feed, long after they should be so the income from the CL is a lifeline for them. As I see it, they can do one of several things, continue as they do at present and allow more than 5 units at £13.00 per night which is obviously popular with members as it was full all week, charge £3 or £4.00 more per pitch to retain the same income but to revert to 5 units or to retain the current fee with 5 vans only which, I would suggest, would not be sufficient income. This could not only close the site to members but could quite easily be the demise of the farm.
As there is plenty of room and also plenty of club members who like the site as it is I think I know the best route for all concerned.
This doesn't detract from my original question about small licensed sites and CLs. For all I know the farm may well have a small site license as, as I said in my OP, the club officials must know this site as it is unique and has been mentioned in the club magazine. But no, I'm still not going to name it and possibly put the future of the site and the farm in general in jeopardy. Anyone who has been there may be able to recognise it but probably feel the same as I do that we are helping a business that is certainly not having it easy.
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Totally agree with last sentence.
Perhaps HQ could answer these questions and say why they are against plans to extend the 5 van rule.
When did the CL system first start?
How many caravans were on the road then?
How many members were there then?
How many cl's were there at the peak?
I know there we over 5000 in 1986 when I joined now there are just over half that.
How many have left the system because of the 5 van limit?
Some landowners seem to get round the rule by using another field or even a fence or hedge. So it seems as though it can be done. One owner even has 4 cl's in a very short area.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Raise the limit to 10 if the landowner has space. this will immediately bring back the number of pitches and also stop the number of cl's leaving the club to go independent. An example is that of The Old Gas Works cl in Evesham. A very popular location because of it's closeness to the town and pleasant situation on the river. The site has now left the club to go it alone after having to turn away business because of this daft ruling. It's new capacity is only 8 pitches but obviously worth their while after turning away club members because of this rule.
I know some of you are against raising the limit but since 1986 the cl system has been on a slippery slope and this needs to be stopped.
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Posted on 01/05/2018 09:38 by harryb
"Totally agree with last sentence.
Perhaps HQ could answer these questions and say why they are against plans to extend the 5 van rule."
How many times does the club have to explain it, I often wonder why people are members of a club who's regulations they have no intention of upholding.Posted on 08/02/2018 14:47 by CLMaddie
Hi All,
The exempted status privilege that has been granted to the Club by Natural England, which enables us to operate CLs, comes from the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. That privilege applies not only to our CL operation, but also to all of our temporary sites and the more than 2,500 rallies that our Centres organise across the Country every year. The fact that the Act has survived intact for 58 years is a credit to all of the Exempted Organisations, who approach their activities in such a responsible manner through their codes of conduct and the behaviour of their members.
We need to be very careful that any argument for an increase in the number of pitches on a CL is not just viewed as a back door way of getting around the site licensing regime, which is a compliance requirement for the operators of commercial sites. Indeed, many of our members enjoy staying on CLs because they offer a more intimate experience and they would not necessarily wish to see them increasing in size.
The Club’s focus is on doing all that we can to grow the number of CLs, not the size of individual CLs, so that we have a balanced coverage across the country for all our members to enjoy.
Thanks
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I'm sorry if in my ageing years my memory has lapses but going back to February I can't remember reading or seeing that post and I don't read posts under every topic on this forum. If the question on the subject has been asked many times, as you clearly state, then maybe the club should put rulings of that nature under a heading at the top of the page. I and thousands of others don't want to go through the laborious routine of searching out historical information made even more difficult by a search facility that doesn't seem to work well. Hence the many repeated topics over time.
The reply from Maddie answers my first two questions. Answers to the other questions will help, maybe, in giving a reason why the system is ready for a change. She states that, "we need to be careful not to be seen to be going in by the back door", to increase the number of pitches. Increasing the number of pitches to 10 by going through the correct channels is not going in by the back door. The C&CC have an even larger total than 10 and they are the same type organisation probably running under the same legislation. Also stated is, "The Club’s focus is on doing all that we can to grow the number of CLs" Year on year there seems to be more closures than new cl's opening, note my comment of over 5000 cl's. and to continue, "not the size of individual CLs, so that we have a balanced coverage across the country for all our members to enjoy". Just what is a balanced coverage? As far as pleasing all members is concerned you will never do that so maybe a poll might prove some interesting facts.
I am a member of this club to enjoy my hobby and I want that to continue. I never said anything about not upholding rules. However, if I arrive at a cl that has 5 vans already pitched and there was space and it was ok with the owner then I would pitch. If that is breaking the rules that is the site owner not the member. That was the cl I chose for a reason. I wouldn't be inconvenienced trawling through the book looking for somewhere else.
Finally, as I said when I agreed with DD the system needs an overhaul to bring it back to a healthier standard and that does not mean breaking rules.
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This isn't a personal comment about you HarryB, but if I'm on a CL which is full and a sixth van turns up expecting to use it I'd be annoyed. The reason we choose CLs is because they are only for five vans, they are usually quieter and less crowded and we like them that way.
You may not be inconveniencing yourself but you would be affecting others. So I am happy with the planning rules, it's quite a good system and prevents vans encroaching on certain places in large numbers.
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Harry, several of us have posted info similar to Maddie's a few times and I’m sure you’ve been party to the threads.
If I remember correctly, C&CC need to grant two exemptions to their CS's. One for 5 vans and another for tents. You can look up the Govt ruling for yourself and check out if I’m right.
The club, or any other organisation granted the right to issue exemption certificates, could lose that right if the regulations are breached.
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Yes, you will be right TW I have taken part in similar discussions on this topic. Me and the 'Search' facility don't get on. My thoughts and concerns still remain the same. The club have got to stop the decline of cl's.
My take on doubling the number of units is not to just do it but for the club to apply under the act for a rule change thereby not contravening any laws.
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It’s the law, Harry. The club can’t simply apply for a change.
Perhaps you could lobby your MP to bring a Private Member's Bill to Parliament.
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After digging around in Google and finding legislation in Acts of Parliament that are longer than War and Peace with more sections and sub-sections than I care to list I have come to the following conclusion.
Hopefully I will see out the time I can partake of my hobby before the demise of the cl system.
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Not me. I’m keen to see them continue which is why I’m against putting the system in jeopardy by ignoring breaches of regulations.
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+1
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If the OP was happy to ignore the extra units I really don't understand why he made this post. I have stayed on many CLs over the years and only a very small number have exceeded the 5 van rule. This tended to be on large sites with plenty of room and often was just for one or two nights and no, I have not reported them or confronted them.
Many CLs have six or seven EHU points to give more pitch choice.
My pet hate is CL owners that allow members to stay till mid afternoon on departure day.
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The Caravan Club and The Camping Club (to use the original names) are two organisations that are allowed to issue exemption certificates. There are also around 350 other organisations. Perhaps few of them would support a change to the limit.
The way the planning exemption was created would seem to require actual parliamentary time to be spent on debating, etc to change it and, as I understand it, both Houses are rather busy at the moment. It is not as if the Secretary of State is allowed to set the number and could be lobbied to vary it.
However, there is nothing to stop interested parties setting up any number of caravanning clubs that comply with the requirements in the Act and applying to be able to issue Exemption Certificates for sites to be used by their members. Seperate Exemption Certificates can be issued for tents, but I don't think the Caravan Club has ever done so. One location can be granted exemptions by more than one organisation.
Just remember before trying to tinker with the existing situation that many residents of the countryside are anti-caravan and have lots of resources and little to do with their time.
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Just a small thought for all of you that are advocating and indeed encouraging, exceeding the CL limit of FIVE units per site.
What happens if, (Heaven Forbid), a fire breaks out on these overcrowded (in the eyes of the law) sites?
Would any insurance be valid?
Would there be a mad scramble to establish who was pitched Legally?
I think we are on dodgy ground there and not worth thinking about in my humble opinion.....
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Funny how words change the context of posts.
Brian, nobody encouraged the exceeding of the 5 van limit without authority. You make it sound like an illegal act.
One or two suggested that the 5 van limit could be raised to 10 by the club to alleviate the falling cl numbers. Discussion took place on that and that alone. Nobody advocated it should be done regardless.
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Aren’t there those who have turned a blind eye to exceeding the 5 van limit, whether mentioned here or not? In my book, their inaction is tantamount to encouraging breaching the law.
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Harry,
What do you call agreeing to pitch when it is obvious that a CL is over full? Is that not encouraging the owner to carry on breaking the terms of their agreement?
Again, may I point out to you and others, what would you do in the case of an insurance claim against the CL that is obviously breaking the terms of their agreement?
Would the insurers support such a claim? I think not. If you are prepared to take the risk, then so be it, it's your choice, sadly , it's not mine....
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