Safefill filling
I’m thinking of swopping to safefill, purely from a weight point of view, as I would need to only carry one cylinder, without fear of running out.
It appears that safefill say that the 7.5 kg cylinder can hold either LPG or propane, if I’m reading it right. Is that correct, and if so, as my current cylinder is propane, which would I fill it with ? All the other posts on here seem to talk about LPG.
If it is LPG, how does that work within my caravan system, do I need an adaptor ?, and can I just swop straight over ?
Also, if it is LPG I use, can I swop back to a propane Calor cylinder in an emergency ?
Thanks
Comments
-
LPG is short for Liquid Petroleum Gas. Calor's red bottles are Propane, blue ones are Butane. Both are liquid petroleum gasses.
Modern caravans, with newer regulators, are usually able to run either gas. Autogas, as bought from garages and put into a safefill bottle, or as in our case a fixed under-slung tank, is a mix of mainly propane with a little butane. There is no choice as to what to buy, and the mix I understand, varies with the seasons, but is no different in use.
There are a number of Safefill users on here who will be able to advise on the need for a different pigtail or regulator to connect a safefill bottle.
0 -
When you fill at a garage, if they let you, my local one has now closed and other garages will not allow me to fill it, however things are changing. It is propane from the pump, it stops filling when the cylinder is 80% full. If you have a caravan bulkhead regulator just a propane 'pigtail' is needed or propane cylinder regulator I always has a 6kg calor lite for back up and just used the safefill.
Propane / butane is LPG (Liquefied petroleum gas)
0 -
UK automotive LPG is Propane, in other countries there can be varying and quite high levels of Butane blended with the Propane.
So here you only have the option of filling with near 100% of Propane, that will work fine in your caravan plus switching between using LPG and Calor or other exchange Propane presents no issues.
The bigger issue going to Safefill is LPG refilling availability, have you unfettered access to anywhere to refill it?
IME the number of outlets is reducing and many are under instruction not to permit portable bottle refilling on forecourts, great pity but a reality at least around here.
0 -
I agree with Ocsid but I haven’t noticed any reduction in outlets. If the outlets are reducing then it can only be being enforced by the big players in the LPG market who are desperate to see the end of Safefill as they can see a very lucrative revenue stream from renting cylinders dropping off their bottom line. Safefill is here to stay. It’s particularly irksome due to the fact that Safefill Cylinders are accepted in the ‘red guide’ which is the Petroleum industry’s bible- in other words, there is no reason why any LPG outlet should refuse filling just because it’s a cylinder.- and any doing so should be challenged- restrictive practices are illegal but that doesn’t seem to worry Calor and Co. We as a group should keep the pressure up and write letters as I have done to our MPs, Department of Trade etc. If you want cheaper gas, then fight for it. My Safefill Cylinders have been used through the winter to feed an LPG blow heater which has kept me lovely and warm in my workshop. They are worth every penny. Goodness knows how much I would have given Calor in rental charges had I not gone SAFEFILL!
1 -
onepjg- you won’t regret going Safefill. I usually check out outlets in the area I am visiting and have had no difficulties over the years. I have filled up on days out and all sorts. With the large 10.3 Kg Cylinders, I can easily survive a fortnight away in the warmer months without refilling. And that is on non EHU!
0 -
Petroleum industry’s bible- in other words, there is no reason why any LPG outlet should refuse filling just because it’s a cylinder.- and any doing so should be challenged- restrictive practices are illegal but that doesn’t seem to worry Calor and Co.
I see no reason to assume that any fuel station, whether independent or part of a group, choosing not to permit the filling of bottles should necessarily be classed as a 'restrictive practice'.
2 -
What else can it be Easy? They are trying to force people to pay rental on their cylinders! If they are refusing to fill any other cylinders but there own or even supply them? It’s an industry that has enjoyed massive revenue from rentals over the years. It’s about time someone broke the strangle hold they have over us. Good for Safefill. We have been down this road many times and nothing changes. It’s almost as though folk love paying ridiculous prices for their gas!! Some of us don’t care because we have lots and lots of money! Some of us are not so well off, particularly the young families. Financially, I’m fine but anything that can help and encourage young families into this hobby has to be a good thing and being able to fill SF cylinders is one of them. It’s about time Calor and co realised that Safefill isn’t going anywhere and allowed universal filling. It’s not hard to ensure that only recognised and legal cylinders get filled. It’s an argument that is going to roll on for years if nothing changes. The only thing that will change it is if thousands and thousands of leisure persuers want their cylinders filled. The more SF Cylinders sold the better!!
0 -
What a lot of irrelevant ranting.......
Petrol stations in the main are owned by large companies and the till & forecourt area are staffed by relatively unqualified staff ( I worked in several as a student), who seem to be fully occupied selling sweets, pasties & coffees now....
They don't have the time to actually inspect or safely (
) supervise what is going on on the forecourt nor make any assesment of the suitability of a cylinder for refilling.....Therefore, no doubt, as others have indicated, staff are advised to refuse to allow the refilling of portable cylinders. They have everybodys safety to be concerned with and are not remotely interested in you saving a few bob on your gas refill....
Further, given that LPG powered cars are now rarer than hens teeth, they have little interest in providing LPG pumps. Several massive forecourts have been refurbed near me recently, none have an LPG pump. Indeed, future refurbs are far more likely to include an EV fast charger than an LPG pump.
LPG is yesterdays technology for cars.
And the idea that the big forecourt operators can be bossed about by Calor is laughable.
I like the idea of a Safefill cylinder in principle but the reality that very soon I would have to go poking around the back streets looking for an agricultural merchant or someone to fill it up for me puts me off........and that it needs a recertification at 10 years old that nobody seems able to quote a price for....?
A big underslung LPG tank with a permanent filler might be good (if you like back streets
) but I see no attraction in a "refillable" portable cylinder sorry....2 -
You assume that the reason some garages do not permit refill of bottles is due to calor gas Merve? Why make that assumption?
In my (albeit) limited experience I have found that most garages that I use, whilst selling gas at the pumps do not sell calor gas. I presume that if any of these choose not to permit bottle refills that it has nothing to do with calor therefore.
With regard to the fewer number of stations that do sell bottled gas if I were a manager of one I might well decide on a policy of not permitting gas refills - as I have said before. The reasons for this are simple. For the average garage there is little profit I suspect due to low sales volume from refilling gas. Also there might be a H&S consideration. For an individual fuel station there might well be a number of different employees behind the counter and a number of these are likely to be part time. Having carried out a risk assessment I would likely determine that if refills were permitted then all these operatives would need to be trained to at least recognise whether a 'proper' refillable bottle of whatever make was being used or a DIY lash up. Would the sales volume make this financially worthwhile? Probably not for most outlets. Can the operator actually determine the bottle type from his desk and if so could this be achieved during hours of darkness. I think that many garages would consider such sales not worth the faff.
I would find it unlikely that any of this could be laid at the feet of Calor.
Didn't see your post TT but similar thoughts
1 -
Who’s ranting now Tinny? The fact is that - and I have had personal proof on several occasions, the last one only a few weeks ago, that Calor are still refusing to give permission for cylinders to be filled. That’s a fact! And the last one that I visited to ask for a fill up was a big group and the manager said and I quote- ‘ I can’t fill those until Autogas give me permission “ - find out who owns Autogas! I have to ask a very simple question— WHY? One doesn’t have to be Einstein before discovering that money is at the forefront. Yes , I agree, gas powered cars are now a rarity- wouldn’t you think that the Groups or Private garages would welcome the chance of a new revenue stream? After all, they have paid for the pump etc. Your argument re overworked staff doesn’t hold water. The pump is turned on from the kiosk- no proof of proper cylinder, no power to pump! Simples.
0 -
We have been down this road many times and nothing changes. It’s almost as though folk love paying ridiculous prices for their gas!! Some of us don’t care because we have lots and lots of money!
For some it might make economical sense. For a great number it would make no sense.
I am away 120 nights a year and get through 6kg of gas. I doubt that the majority of 'vanners use much more on an annual basis. Not enough to justify the financial outlay nor the occasional faff locating a supplier when I can usually visit the site reception and exchange one of my 3.9kg bottles.
0 -
that Calor are still refusing to give permission for cylinders to be filled.
Presumably because their cylinders are not designed as refillable cylinders...?
‘ I can’t fill those until Autogas give me permission
Perhaps because they too are concerned about safety...??
wouldn’t you think that the Groups or Private garages would welcome the chance of a new revenue stream?
I think there is more profit selling a pasty & a coffee now....
Your argument re overworked staff doesn’t hold water. The pump is turned on from the kiosk- no proof of proper cylinder, no power to pump!
The staff still have a legal duty to age check the person attempting to use the forecourt and the suitability of the "container" they are using so they can't just turn the pump on, are you suggesting they should trot out to inspect the cylinder or that the customer brings it in for inspection (and what qualification do they have to do that? And I'm not sure which petrol stations you use but the one's I use always have have a long queue (of people buying far more profitable sweets, pasties & coffee's....)
0 -
“I don’t believe it so it’s not happening” is not an argument.
All this about safety has been sorted and filed away- Let me repeat- Safefill is a properly constructed cylinder MADE to be refilled - it’s in the red book. That’s it! Now, if Safefill isn’t for you , that’s absolutely fine, some don’t use enough gas to justify the cost of a cylinder and I get that I really do. But please, don’t go on about safety when all that has been addressed by the top authorities in the country and put to bed. A cylinder is a cylinder shaped car- same valve but safer. To be so negative about something that is such a boon to the leisure industry is a pity but I’m sure the big boys I’ll love you Tinny. 😂😂😂
0 -
All this about safety has been sorted and filed away- Let me repeat- Safefill is a properly constructed cylinder MADE to be refilled - it’s in the red book. That’s it!
Whether Safefill is a safe system or not is, to some extent, irrelevant in as much as managers still need to risk assess their own operation. They have to determine whether the 'person in the kiosk' has the sight and competence to be sure that the bottle some chap is huddled over is a safefill bottle. Also whether the game is worth a candle. As for a revenue stream - probably for the majority of stations that do not permit refills it would be a slow drip rather than a stream Merve. I strongly believe that many outlets are simply not interested in supplying a small market. Have you tried buying unbleached tripe or a boiling fowl or even mutton these days
1 -
If gas is not making a decent profit, is that the fault of the Safefill owner? No! The fact is thousands of caravanners are wanting to fill cylinders, some like me use LPG during the winter and from my SF Cylinders- a revenue stream that is going begging?
Presumably because their cylinders are not designed as refillable cylinders...?
Safefill is designed to be refilled easily and much cheaper by the user /owner.
You mentioned the cost of testing after 10 years. I doubt that it will be anything different to testing a diving tank after 5 and that is cheap enough.
I visited a distributor in Scotland when I visited my daughter before Christmas ( I won’t say where as it could cause problems) and we had a good chat about their supplier- please believe me when I say the the big boys are making it difficult for the retailers! I would be more than happy to bet that I have done far more work in this Tinny than you have having visited dozens of outlets and held dozens of conversations. I know what I have been told and it ain’t pretty! Hopefully, it will be sorted out but who knows. I just know I have saved hundreds of pounds since owning a Safefill Cylinder and that’s good enough for me. I just want others to have the same benefit.
0 -
Let me repeat- Safefill is a properly constructed cylinder MADE to be refilled
I don't doubt that for a moment Merve, but the issue is probably that Forecourt staff will have had little or no training in distinguishing that from someones Heath Robinson home lash up, and so the forecourt operator will err on the side of safety, with obvious results....
And the other issue is that LPG pumps will fairly soon dissapear from forecourts making it more of a faff to find somewhere to fill it.....
And the capital and unknown recertification costs......
As a modest user I will have to continue being the "big boys" dream customer.....!
0 -
If gas is not making a decent profit, is that the fault of the Safefill owner? No! The fact is thousands of caravanners are wanting to fill cylinders, some like me use LPG during the winter and from my SF Cylinders- a revenue stream that is going begging?
Thousands of safefill users bringing trade to thousands of garages? I suspect that there is more profit selling Walkers Crisps and less hassle.
0 -
If gas is not making a decent profit, is that the fault of the Safefill owner?
Obviously not but it means it is probably not worth forecourt operators training staff to recognise a Safefill cylinder with a current certificate...
You mentioned the cost of testing after 10 years. I doubt that it will be anything different to testing a diving tank after 5 and that is cheap enough.
So we don't know what that cost is then.....?
I would be more than happy to bet that I have done far more work in this Tinny than you have having visited dozens of outlets and held dozens of conversations.
You can have as many conversations as you like Merve, but LPG will dissappear off forecourts relatively soon, leaving you trawling the back streets, great if you can be bothered, I can't.....
0 -
I don’t think they could be any clearer marked Easy! A Safefill cylinder is instantly recognisable but if If that’s what it comes down to then things will never change. Surely the point is that the more people who have SF the market for filling them will grow! What comes first, the chicken or the egg?? It’s a shame that some will find any little excuse, pertinent or not, to fall on a product that is clearly of massive benefit to those who have a need for it or find it a boon to whatever their activity is. I wish everyone who pays £6 for their gas and £18 pound for the container, a good 2018 season. See you at the show.
0 -
I spoke to a Calor rep yesterday and asked what the position is in respect of the Lite cylinders, as it is getting more difficult to replace them. He stated that as they come in for re-fill they are safety tested and if Ok refilled, but some fail and so there are less and less in circulation.
He also said that Calor’s new lightweight cylinder will be available by the end of this year, which is encouraging for those of us that have weight issues.
Ken
0 -
I wish everyone who pays £6 for their gas and £18 pound for the container, a good 2018 season. See you at the show.
Are you manning the safe fill stand Merve to make sure your investment pays
I do not think the argument is about safe fill being OK to fill or Calor stopping anyone filling up, if I ran a garage and someone wanted to fill a proper refillable gas cylinder its all money to me, however like many have said how do you train lots of part time workers to know what is and is not safe to fill?? It is easy to recognise a proper petrol or diesel plastic container, there are even pictures next to the pumps in many stations to help!
We have never had issues filling our MH (Gaslow) but it has a filler on the inside of the gas locker so I guess the forecourt attendant would know or guess its a proper system?? It is true that LPG availability is getting less and less, maybe with the death of diesels LPG powered cars and vans will make a comeback but I somehow doubt is as the money for R&D is going into electric, even the Electric MH at Dusseldorf only had electric appliances and no gas!!!
0 -
We have a dual fuel LPG car, and have no problems whatsoever filling it. And with a fuel less than half the price of petrol, let alone diesel!
0 -
It's taken until page 3 to realise that Safefill is not the only refillable. I've got a Safefill in the MH. I open the locker on the rear offside, connect the hose and fill up. Is some over-pressed kiosk attendant even going to notice whether it's a plumbed in system or a "loose" bottle?
The principal advantage has been missed and that is the ability to replenish one's gas supplies whilst abroad.
1 -
Another Safefill convert here. We made the switch at Christmas and love it already.
0 -
Check this out, P&K.
https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/club-together/discussions/lee-armsby/safefill-gas-bottle/?p=2
0 -
Been viewing the post and in the past done a fair bit of reading on refill user owned cylinders, savings are great about one third of the cost compared to BP gas lite.
I still use BP gas only because I called a up a few service stations around Devon and none of them seemed over keen on the idea of user fill cylinders.
Also called a few service stations from the refill list published by Safefill two of these no longer sell LPG from the pump.
Also went on to the UK LPG web page one of their data sheets stated that the gas fill point must be fixed to the vehicle and that the cylinder is to be located into the vehicle.
Would be good to know what are the real safety concerns involved, does any one know ?
Maybe I am over thinking this but is the safety concern due the risk of shearing off the fill point of a free standing cylinder if it were to be knocked over whilst filling ?
0 -
Yes. If you go ono ebay you will find a reverse valve fitment for calor type containers. You can use this to refill them. The issue is they they have no metering system in them.
Gas cylinders should only be filled by weight, by the owner of the cylinder.
Gas cylinders are very safe but have one serious weakness. They have to have room for expansion of the gas. Refillable ones are designed to always give you the safety fill level. Calor bottles with adaptors do not have this function. If you overfill containers and do not allow room for expansion then you risk rupture which in a steel tank causes explosion.
As a result of this many retailers banned filling of all portable containers. The tide is turning, the regulations have been revised and you are allowed to fill Safefill, Gaslow etc at the pumps.
Apart from having a level control Safefil also has a construction that causes decompression if they structurally fail as opposed to explosive failure. They are safe to be filled but they have a job to convince the retailers of this.
0 -
Also (surprisingly to me ) available on Amazon for £57 plus £8 delivery.
Among the usage instructions 't's really as simple as that. only ever fill bottles to 80% !!!!! only ever fill empty bottles !!! 1 litre of lpg= 500g lpg 13kg bottle = 26 litres of lpg. ALWAYS USE PPE!'
So wear Personal Protective Equipment
Yeah Right!!0
