Acceptable Payload - What’s Yours ?
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....but did you weigh the caravan prior to all your additions, or did you weigh the caravan after you loaded everything, to check your number were correct against the 'true' fully loaded weight of the van...?
the MIRO in a brochure or on a website can be out by upto +/- 5% which could be a huge chunk of your payload and leave your meticulous calculations wildly inaccurate....
yes, you're doing the right thing to understand what goes inside the van, but you must also have an accurate known start point...and for me, that isnt something printed in a catalog....
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sorry, but the only way to know if you're under your MTPLM is to weigh the van...fully loaded.
...and you have a van with 155kg 'payload'....on (say) a 1500kg MTPLM van?
manufacturers can be +/- 5% on their weights (not under, I'll wager) which means your van could weigh 75kg more than you thought...your 'payload' is now 80kg......not many bags of sugar....
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BB - I understand and agree entirely with your post but I personally suspect very few people ever weigh their van when it’s empty. Collecting it from the dealers and transferring stuff from old to new is probably the usual way, and I can’t see many emptying it later to weigh it, hence my comment re using MIRO as your empty weight.
You appear to think I’m suggesting weighing what you put in and adding it to MIRO. I’m not. I’m saying get your vans weight, minus the MIRO (or actual unladen weight if you know it) and that’s your payload. My question is who knows what theirs is ?
and not many people appear to have a figure !
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We never weighed our empty van but we weighed it, fully loaded, 18 years ago, (when we travelled with children), when we took a lot more than we do now. It was within the MTPLM (except it wasn't even called that, then), so ever since we haven't bothered weighing anything, because lots of the stuff we used to take has long since been removed from the van!
I would suggest that anyone who has a weighbridge near them loads up the van with everything they would be taking, an!d then takes it to the weighbridge - and possibly sits back to wait for the shock. Then take it back home and remove anything and everything that you can do without - weigh that and substract from the 'weighed when loaded' figure and see if you're nearer to the figure you should be.
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that's the same as I was getting at in an earlier post. the mtplm is the most important weight as over and your breaking the law. most people take the same items on every trip so once they know their total weight it's easier to weigh the odd extra that they might want to take. so taking something else out to compensate or still being within the mtplm. if your nose weight is within limits as well then nothing to worry about.
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I though being over the MTPLM wasn't breaking the law? Only going over your outfits gross train weight is?
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im no expert on the law Corners, but in respect of a MH, ive read in many places that, if a van was over its MTPLM and on both axles, you would (could) be fined three times....once for each offence.
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"You appear to think I’m suggesting weighing what you put in and adding it to MIRO. I’m not. I’m saying get your vans weight...".
how do you 'get your vans weight'?.....this can only be done at a weighbridge, and has to be in a known state....
whatever state it is in, it must not exceed its MTPLM nor its axle limits...
yes, you can get a hypothetical 'payload' as described above....
perhaps im being a bit dense....i cant see what you are trying to measure (exactly) when there is no known (exact) weights involved....
as i mentioned earlier, the MIRO figure cant be relied on due to manufacturers 'variances' so its impossible to know your 'payload' without knowing (say) the weight of the van in its 'unladen' state which you then subtract from its MTPLM...
the MTPLM is an exact number....to establish 'payload' any other numbers (eg 'MIRO') must also be exact to produce the exact figure you are seeking.
the 'unladen weight' of my van is around 2650kg, but i had several extras factory fitted and accessories added which obviously raised this, so i had the dealer weiigh the van in a known state...
i then made a calculation for water and other extras being transferred from our previous van, i had previously weighed all the stuff that came out of our other van, bikes, tables chairs etc, along with a batch of clothes, wine allowance etc...so i knew what the total 'expected' fully loaded weight would be..and a stab at how the weight would be apportioned to each axle..
this was comfortably within all limits so i went ahead with the purchase.
at the first opportunity i took the fully loaded van to a weighbridge to comfirm my calculations and i was pretty accurate.
so, within all these numbers i have, im sure i could tell you what my payload is, but it would make no difference to me, i know where i stand with regard to my MTPLM and axle limits, thats all i need to know..
different vans use different components to arrive at MIRO, with manufacturers often missing out key items (eg fresh water in MHs) to make the payload sound 100kg more....
at the end of the day, 'payload' can only be approximate unless the MIRO has been exactly established via a weighbridge...
to answer your specific question, i gues my 'payload' is somewhere between 850kg and 650kg depending on how you establish MIRO...
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Require your dealer to furnish an as delivered weighbridge certificate as part of the "acceptance" process; so glad we did as it had to be replated by the manufacturer lifting the MPTLM towards nearer meet our payload specification. Showed the brochure value for MIRO up as worthless.
If more took a deeper interest in what they were buying we would with the awareness of weight all benefit as then the ludicrous payloads would begin to disappear.
Should have been 300kgs but even after upgrading we finally settled for 272 achieved.
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thanks for the reply, I don't know either but just remembering (perhaps incorrectly) what other people had posted on here.
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You musn't exceed any of the statutory plated weights and that includes the MTPLM. You were probably thinking of the manufacturer's towload limit which isn't an offence to exceed so long as the outfit is within the plated max. gross train weight although it could affect warranty coverage and in the extreme, insurance.
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...i cant see what you are trying to measure (exactly) when there is no known (exact) weights involved....
BB - the point is that no one can know their actual laden weight until they have bought and loaded their van, and that could prove to be an expensive mistake, or an unsafe outfit, if you ‘have’ to take certain items. So when changing a van, you need an idea of your personal payload, especially as the different manufacturers payloads vary so widely. If more people knew what they really needed, perhaps manufacturers would see a slow down in sales of low payload vans, forcing them to rethink.
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OK thanks Lutz.
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350 kg minus the mover and battery
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which was why i ignored the ' brochure weight' of my proposed purchase and got the dealer to weigh it...known weight.
i then added all known weights of the stuff i intended to put in it, including us and an allowance for water ......and wine....
putting all these 'known weights' together gave me a pretty good chance of predicting what the fully loaded weighbrige figure would be... i was within 20kg....
yes, i knew what my 'personal payload' amounted to as it was luing arpund my garage and had all been weighed....however, none of this was worth anything at all if the van i wanted weighed 150kg (5%) more than the brochure weight....
i agree, its good to know what weight youre going to put in a van, this gives you an idea as to which vans might be in that payload range.
...but if this is marginal then knowing the 'exact' weight of the van itself gives a much more reassuring position...
just hoping a van will be somewhere in the region of its MIRO might well be a recipe for the situation you describe...
making the 'exact weight' of the vehicle part of the acceptance process (to within an agreed figure) should again help with that reassurance..
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I agree entirely but would make two points :
I presume that dealers would have an accurate, calibrated set of weight scales, mainly used for warranty issues when they suspect the MTPLM has been exceeded, or easy access to a weighbridge, to provide a correct weight at purchase, but I don’t actually know if many do.
I would presume that, with a new van, you would be able to reject the van as not as described, if the MIRO was proved to be incorrect after purchase. They print it in every brochure that the dealer gives you, so it’s fairly clear cut. Presumably the section of the Sale of Goods Act covering ‘as described’ would be relevant.
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I am trying to think what the difference might be between a caravan and Motorhome payload. On our Motorhome we have an allowable 500 kg and fully loaded with 100 litre of water, full fuel and full gas tank, 25 litre waste we have used 440kg. Take off 125 for the water and 10kg for fuel (90% is allowed for) gives 305 kg. I would say we travel fairly light.
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I used to be meticulous about weight and balance when we had caravans, a throwback to the days when my flying instructor would demand to know, to the mm , where my centre of gravity was but now we have a VW campervan I know that if I load up with wine on the trip home my credit card will max out before my payload or axle load does.
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But with the VW campervan you know you have a wheel at each corner as it was based on a load carrying transporter van. Many MHs are not, having far from a wheel mounted at each corner with all the loading issues that creates. So there the technique of using the credit card limit is less applicable.
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Without trying to offend anyone, I find the subject of user payload a bit misleading/confusing.
What does it refer to or when?
I just had my caravan serviced and when I collected the dealer informed my that i was ok as it was under its maximum load. He told me that due to axle failures they had invested in scales and now weighed every van that comes in.
The weight was 1430 kgs. A little bit of a surprise as I empty it out for its service. My caravan has had a weight upgrade and is 1550 kgs, this means that the few extras that are fitted to my caravan ( 40l onboard tank, motor mover, levelling system and alde towel rail) have used up 123kgs of my payload, leaving just 80 to play with. Of course, assuming that the dealer scales calibration is correct.
I have weighed what I carry in the caravan and load the rest in the tow vehicle.
My point is, whilst it’s on the road, it’s kept within the 1550kgs. When it’s on site, I step in and my 102kgs plus the essentials of caravan life pushes it way over.
Not such a problem for me as the hydraulic levelling system takes the wieght off the suspension when parked up.
One question springs to mind is, when I’m towing, is the 100kgs that is applied to the tow hitch removed from the static load of what is applied to the axle?
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I think we are talking about the legal limit for towing here, not the dynamics of a van in motion or stationary. Yes, the hitch takes static load but the dynamic loads on the van are far higher when you are in motion. I don’t believe moderately overloading the van when stationary is too much of a concern. I assume you will not travel with water in the onboard tank. Most are not designed for it plus an extra load of 1 kg per litre is substantial.
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Just to clarify part of my post on page two, the day that I collected my new caravan it was totally empty except for the battery which I had weighed at 22kg, the motor mover and the ATC unit both of which had published weights on their brochures. This gave me a very simply calculated MiRO from which to start adding my list of contents the weight of everything already being known. There was absolutely no need to load it fully as for a trip away and then take it to the weighbridge.
As I stated in my earlier post my only concern was that the handbook published MiRO was not the same as the plate which, in turn was not the same as the weighbridge figure.
The problem with not actually weighing the caravan is that different manufacturers include some 'additions' as being part of the MiRO. Lunar, for example include the hook up cable, 10 ltrs of water and 8kg of gas. Very bizarre. What is wrong with just telling us the weight of the empty 'van, accurately of course?
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Our unit is always about 100kg under the limit of the axle😄
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including the extras packs and accessories, our previous Carthago had nearly 300kg of additional weight...
ok, on the 4250kg chassis, we had a tonne of payload, so no issue, but when folk start ticking brochure option boxes on a 3.5t chassis, they need to be a bit savvy about whats really happening to the vans weight..
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I have an excel work sheet which is very detailed and shows how much I can carry in the car (Sportage KX-4 AWD 2014) and caravan (Bailey Pegasus Verona 2016).
I would love to share it for interest and comment but do not appear to be able to copy it onto the website
. If anybody would like a copy I would be happy to share.I used to caravan about 20+ years with young children, the payload never seemed a problem, now just me and the missus with essentials and most has to go in the car.
I am now doubting my excel skills!!!
Cheers
Derek
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