What changes would you make ?
Comments
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Ken
Whilst I don't mind non facility sites I do wonder if the Club would take the route you are suggesting. If they can build a toilet block I reckon they always will because they know they can charge more per night. I also think we will be seeing more static accommodation on sites in years to come and depending on what form that takes a toilet block might still be needed. Now if the Club would share its future thinking with us we wouldn't have to second guess!!!
David
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Whilst I don't mind non facility sites I do wonder if the Club would take the route you are suggesting. If they can build a toilet block I reckon they always will because they know they can charge more per night.
I thought this thread was for wishes David
I like non facility sites but cannot envisage the CC providing any new ones - and we have lost a fair number whether by letting go/losing a lease or by the club adding facilities. .
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Have lived with existing rules on club sites for decades so suppose I can carry on.
Do wish club would allow CL owners to sign up members if a non member arrives at their CL. At present they have to turn them away even if non member wants to join. Stupid rule.
Also wish they would support CLs more. Maybe commission a report to see if 5 van rule can be extended if space on CL allows.
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Also wish they would support CLs more. Maybe commission a report to see if 5 van rule can be extended if space on CL allows.
It seems not to be widely known that the five caravan rule that applies to CLs is nothing to do with the Caravan Club, or any of the hundreds of other organisations that enjoy the same privilege under planning regulations.
A review at government level would leave it open for the anti-caravan lobby to have it reduced, or removed altogether.
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Unless there is a really stroppy warden i can assure you that a wind out canopy is allowed on a non awning pitch,as long as the sides are not fitted,as they can be wound in ,i am not sure if they can be left out if vehicle is unoccupied,not sure that i would want to anyway,
Our Thule Omnistore 6200 has been used on a non awning pitch at Seacroft a couple of times just recently over new year
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I don't disbelieve you JVB, that, as you say, has been your experience.
My experience on a blue peg was : You cant put that pop up tent on a blue non awning pitch.. and my canopy awning ? Nope not on here ! You need a white peg. Well can I move ? Yes... so I moved.
I remember the site now, Much Wenlock, now closed I believe. I can remember the incident really tainted our stay there.
Not wanting to have that experience again, we now always go on a white peg if we have the pop up tent with us.
Perhaps what we need is a note in the site details as to whether the warden is stroppy or not......
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yes, did someone from the club post on it saying that was so?
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not for a MH as I recall, it would simply take the space where the car would be if it was a caravan. As I remember as long as there was clear 3m from the wind out awning to the next outfit it was permitted.
As Steve has said (somewhere) often non awning pitches are the same size as awning pitches, but the car+ van have to be in the middle area of the pitch to maintain the 3m to the next outfit.
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The recent videos from the multi-storey car park fire showed how good cars are at spreading fire. The spacing was similar to the car - caravan spacing on sites.
Somehow I don't see a wind out awning managing such efficiency in fire spread. Even a full awning won't be that good - and its spacing from the next pitch's car would be about the same as in that car park.
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Yes, Sorry Nav, did know this but didn't phrase my post very well. Meant the club could lobby for this, whilst pointing out the considerable, and I do mean considerable, contribution the caravanning community make to local economies. About time the club started being pro-active in promoting the economic benefits of having us lot on the doorstep.
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I’m happy with it just as it is . I don’t like want full service pitches .
The only thing I need at times it to arrive earlier. This is the only thing that we have problems with . And find our selves waiting in lay-bys or motorway service stations .
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Spacing is a farce. The powers that be harp on about side to side spacing, but even when parked rigidly to the peg, you can be well within 3 meters from the outfit behind you. Last summer at Morton in Marsh, an obviously new (ish) warden commented to another warden that our outfit was spitting distance from the outfit on the other side of the hedge behind us ..... the warden just shrugged his shoulders. 😕
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Yes MM, I have often thought exactly the same. Six meters between caravans to the left and right, but only about two meters between you and the caravan behind you. The planning regulations, you would assume, must therefore not include spacing between units in any direction, but just side to side. If those regulations ever change, and one day they might, every caravan site in the country will have a huge task to perform.
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Are the other outfits 2 metres behind or on the diagonal? I ask because. perhaps by chance, I have not had outfits that close directly behind me
When I built a firewall for my oil tank, from memory, the regulations seemed to assume no need to protect the tank from diagonal spread.
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The science is based on the amount of exposure.
Twenty feet of the blazing side of a caravan at any given distance from the twenty feet of the adjacent one will give a particular spread of fire. It will be less for seven feet of width if it is an end, and less again for a diagonal, all at the same spacing.
For future reference - I am not stating it is safe, just that it is less dangerous. I would still jump out a window on the non-fire side and run!!
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If the CMC stipulate that the separation gap between units should be 6 meters, then that 6 mtr gap has to be maintained in all directions. Anything less than that, contravenes the CMC's own safety rules and therefore is not fit for purpose.
K
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From West Yorkshire Fire Service
Holiday Caravan Sites
The foregoing standards should apply to Holiday and Touring caravan sites subject to the following modifications:
Density and Space Between Caravans
Subject to the following variations, the minimum spacing distance between caravans made of aluminium or other materials with similar fire performance properties should be not less than 5 metres between units, 3.5 metres at the corners. For those with a plywood or similar skin it should be not less than 6 metres. Where there is a mixture of holiday caravans of aluminium and plywood, the separation distance should be 6 metres; and where there is a mixture of permanent residential homes and holiday caravans, the separation distance should again be 6 metres. The point of measurement for porches, awnings etc are the exterior cladding of the caravan.
Porches may protrude 1m into the 5 metres and should be of the open type.
Where awnings are used, the distance between any part of the awning and an adjoining caravan should not be less than 3 metres. They should not be of the type that incorporates sleeping accommodation and they should not face each other or touch.
Eaves, drainpipes and bay windows may extend into the 5 metre space provided the total distance between the extremities of 2 adjacent units is not less than 4.5 metres.
Where there are ramps for the disabled, verandas and stairs extending from the unit, there should be 3.5m clear space between them (4.5m if mixture of caravans) and such items should not face each other in any space. If they are enclosed, they may need to be considered as part of the unit and, as such, should not intrude into the 5m (or 6m) space.
The gross density should not exceed 60 caravans to the hectare, calculated on the useable area.
No caravan standing should be more than 50 metres from a road.
Hard standings may be dispensed with if the caravans are removed during the winter, or if they are situated on ground that is firm and safe in poor weather conditions.
Touring Caravan Sites
Density and Space Between Caravans
The gross density should not exceed 75 caravans or motor caravans per hectare (30 per acre). Where tent camping is also permitted the number of pitches should be reduced by the number of main tents stationed for human habitation.
Where the number of units is limited by conditions imposed by the Licensing Authority, maxima may be prescribed by reference to specified periods, permitting up to 10% more units during peak period agreed and providing that the space standards are complied with.
A minimum distance of 6 metres should be maintained between other units in separate family occupation, and not less than 3 metres between units in any circumstances. Vehicles and ancillary equipment is permitted within the 6 metres space but 3 metres clear space should always be maintained to restrict fire spread.
Roads, Gateways and Footpaths
Not prescribed, Station Managers should be familiar with any access problems and advise the site owner accordingly.
Emergency vehicles should have access to within 90 metres of any unit.
Site owners should be encouraged to maintain vegetation at a reasonable level, where the likelihood of fire spreading due to vegetation catching fire, suitable beaters of a type used by the Forestry Commission should be provided at each fire point.
Telephone
Although not prescribed, site owners should be encouraged to provide details of the nearest available telephone for contacting the emergency services.
Refuse Disposal
Adequate provision shall be made for the storage, collection and disposal of refuse.
Parking
Not specified, however it is recommended that the door to the caravan should not be obstructed.
Bibliography
Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 Section 5
Model Standards 1989: Permanent Residential Mobile Home Sites HMSO 1989.
Model Standards 1989: Holiday Caravan Sites HMSO 1989.
Model Standards 1989: Touring Caravan Sites HMSO 1989.
Guidance Note CS4. The Keeping of LPG in cylinders and similar containers. Health and Safety Executive. HMSO 1986.
Guidance Note CS11. The storage and use of LPG at Metered Estates. Health and Safety Executive. HMSO.
Guidance Booklet HSG 34. The storage of LPG at Fixed Installations. Health and Safety Executive. HMSO.
British Standard 5482. Code of Practice for domestic butane and propane gas burning installations Part 2: Installations in Caravans and non-permanent dwellings.
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Planning regulations don't include any spacing guidelines at all whether side to side or back to back.
Site licenses will no doubt consider these issues but it would be an enforcement nightmare if a planning authority imposed spacing conditions in this amount of detail
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A minimum distance of 6 metres should be maintained between other units in separate family occupation, and not less than 3 metres between units in any circumstances. Vehicles and ancillary equipment is permitted within the 6 metres space but 3 metres clear space should always be maintained to restrict fire spread.
The second part of this paragraph is very ambiguous. Does it say that if you have caravan/ car /neighbours caravan that you require 3 m clear space between all items which would result in caravan separation of 9m face to face?
I realise the CAMC are saying that your car can almost touch your own caravan but is that what the Fire Service actually mean?
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I believe the 6m/3m spacing is recommended but, as you have pointed out, Jay, it’s not a requirement. That explains why some privately owned sites choose to pack em in close.
Both clubs choose to adhere to the recommendation which can only be good.
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The only change I would like is the ability to book a hard standing.
We used one of the sites that were in that trial and had no problem with the booking, or identifying a hard standing as opposed to a grass pitch when we reached the site.
With regard to spacing, on awning pitches with the usual car/caravan/awning set up, there needs to be 3m between your awning and the next pitch's car, and on the other side 3m between your car and the next pitch's awning.
OK to be incinerated by your own car going on fire, but bad form to also incinerate your neighbours.
Back to back and diagonal corner to corner spacing of vans should be 3m too. This has led to quite a few previously awning pitches at Rowntree (and a few other sites) being changed to non awning if I remember correctly.
So,MM, that warden at Moreton was correct to be concerned. Presumably only shorter vans should have been using those pitches and the peg should have been set forward to show how far back a van can be pitched. I have seen this done on a few sites.
Warden should therefore have allocated you either a non back to back pitch, or a longer pitch, as he would know the size of the vans booked.
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