Alde heating problem
I’m hoping someone can advise me. Just had the van serviced and the Alde fluid changed. We are currently away in the van with little prospect of getting a mobile engineer out for at least another week.
Previously, when the thermostat was turned up, the heat came through with what can best be described as a ‘whoosh’ - now it’s just a trickle- if that makes sense. Doesn’t make any difference whether on electricity or gas, or both.
Not a massive problem because the van still gets hot - just takes a lot longer than previously. There aren’t any cold spots in the pipe work so I’m guessing that an air lock isn’t the issue. Have checked the 12v in-line pump setting and the blue dial seems to be at about 2 which is what is recommended. That said, it’s a bit arbitrary because only 1,4 and 5 are marked ( as far as I can see) and it’s not a linear scale. Question is - am I likely to do any harm by turning it up and is that likely to solve the problem?Especially since the heating is working- sort of - and the last thing I want to do is trash it completely. Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks - Richard
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Thanks ET. Must admit an air lock was my first reaction. However, since I don’t know where all the bleed points are - particularly in respect of the bathroom radiator which will probably mean removing the cover ( and I dont know how) plus the manual talks about having to tilt the van to remove stubborn air locks - I will probably leave well alone for now rather than risk losing the heating altogether. Will fiddle with pump speed though.
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I also would suspect an airlock. More or less what you describe happened when we had ours changed. Although the van is getting warm, it is mild at the moment and even without full efficiency that could be achieved. Our airlock made its way to the towel rail, where it was easily released. It did take almost another half litre of fluid to replace the air though. Fortunately they had supplied me with that for such an eventuality.
Edit just noticed your later post richardandros. Our radiator did not have a cover, so can't help in that respect unfortunately.
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Tbh it’s hard to believe it’s not an airlock. The Alde manual gives the following instructions. Turn the pump to 5. Using gas set the temp to 30. After 10minutes pump back to 2. Then switch every thing off. Then bleed. Point is bleeding is done with the system switched offf. If you say what your van is. If you did then perhaps someone would know where the bleeds are.
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If you have a towel rail heater the bleed point is fairly obvious, if it is a small panel radiator the bleed point is accessed by just removing the 2 screws on the top ( 1 either side )
on a swift 480 size c'van there is a bleed valve behind both long seat backrest boards in the rubber hoses which connect the pipes to the heat exchangers.
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Hmmm,recently had the system drained and refilled on my "Concorde" by 'Southdowns' ,,all the above problems .SO,thanks to you all,i have to bleed it then !!
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Had our fluid replaced at Alde last month. No problems. There are certain dealers who I wouldn’t trust to change the fluid in a toilet let alone in the heating system. Really if it is an airlock then you should be getting your money back as they haven’t done the job properly. With regards to bleed points it makes sense to fit one on the towel rail, if you have one, as it’s a high point, it might not be the only one and the bleed points are positioned at the whim of the installer, which is why you need to check the positions on the specific the you have.
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An air lock as its name implies is a "lock", a lock to the fluid flowing around the circuit. In which case only tube very close to the boiler would be warm at all.
If the whole circuit is heating, the system is working and the issue is not an air lock.
In changing the fluid most would up the pump speed to best purge the system before they reset it to the minimum speed the system is effective at and achieving the lowest level of noise and wear and tear.
Feeling the pipe temperature around the circuit will readily let you know if there is an air lock, some will be quite cold. It will also if you sense a real gradient tell you the flow rate is too slow.
You will do no short-term harm by increasing the pump speed, things will be noisier and over time pump wear will increase, but system heating performance will be better. Better because more of the circuit will have the hotter fluid present, ie it will not chill so quickly on a prolonged time getting back to the boiler.
Maybe the van's pump had been left a bit fast post any PDI attention, and now the recharger has set it to the typical setting?
I would up its speed before doing anything else and see how it goes.
Air locks can readily form not long after a fluid change if not well purged, but the tests spoken of here will quickly indicate that is the case. Air locks don't retard the fluid flow they "stop" it, once the fluid is flowing the system will then progressively purge any minor entrained air and dissolved air out. So once it is operating give it a prolonged and excessively hot run, this effectively best conditions the fluid greatly minimising any future tendancy to form air locks.
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Thanks for all your helpful replies. Should have said - the ‘van Is a U3 - 2015 - Bailey Barcelona. I think I’m now more or less convinced that it is an air lock and whilst I’m quite practical, have decided that now is neither the time nor the place to possibly make matters worse. I will wait until the dealer reopens after New Year and give them an earful! Have tried increasing the pump speed but that didn’t change anything.
What makes me particularly angry is that the last thing I said to the service dept when I picked the van up last week - was had they thoroughly tested the heating because the last thing I wanted was to arrive on site on Christmas Eve and find a fault. Should have saved my breath!!
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From my previous experience it took a week of usage for the fault to show and Alde say themselves to be prepared for airlocks after first usage. I have no doubt that the manufacturer's pipe layout will have some effect. The dealer may well have tested it and run it for a while. Don't be to hard on them when you complain therefore.
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Yes ET - you’re right and I will probably have calmed down a bit by next Wednesday when they open again. Did run it when we got home from dealer and it seemed OK - but I wasn’t paying as much attention to it as I am now.
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Some I know, recently had this problem with a U3 Seville, it took ages to sort out. The person who did the change couldn’t sort it. He actually booked it into Alde but managed to sort it himself after advice from Alde and hours of work. Perhaps there is a peculiarity with u3’s that make them tricky.
I can understand a small amount of air coming out of solution as the system heats up. But a major airlock sort of indicates to me that the system had been completely filled.
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DIY bleeding off of air locks is far from difficult if the location and access techniques to all of these are known. In that lays IME the only challenge, knowing where they all are and how to get in there.
It could be very important to identify all as the missed one might be where the lock is.
It would be valuable to the OP and other owners if those who know where the U3 bleeders all are, place that valuable info on forums for other owners to make a note of in their manuals.
Armed with that info all that is needed is the like of a face towel to hold under the bleeder and gently crack the bleeder till it flows half an eggcup of fluid out. If genuine Alde bleeders are used these are finger use jobs. Carefully after doing each one look at the header and replenish any large loss of fluid, which will only be the case should a big air bubble be there. Whilst it is best to carry a little top up fluid if that is not to hand and deionised water is also not, then top up with a little pre-boiled water. Don't over fill, so then at your leisure you can top up with an equal amount of concentrate, though the dilution levels being dealt with here are really irrelevant.
Once through bleeding and a period of really high temperature use, it is very unlikely to be needed again. Take from that it is advisable to get things really hot post getting it working as that best expands and moves on and out of the system any remaining traces of air .1 -
I have a Valencia of the same year.
i have drained my system twice and have never had a problem refilling it
if you lower the nose of the caravan, this will aid you in venting the air from the system.
there is one air vent behind the seat cushion by the door. Open this by a quarter to half a turn until it stops hissing, then close and move on to the next. Then the next is under the bed in the corner, that backs onto the shower. Finally, remove the radiator grill in the bathroom/ washroom and you’ll find the last one.
check the level in the header and top up to minimum mark.
turn on the heating system and look into the header and you should see the water moving from the right. Yo may also notice air bubbling up. Keep and eye on the level and keep it above the minimum do not fil it to the maximum level as this will expand out and be wasted.
you can turn the pump up to a higher settin* and this will speed the process up a little.
Once the system is hot and there is no more bubbling in the header, just water movement, turn the system off and check the air vents.
Now your system should be free of air.
ensure that the pump speed is returned to the 2 mark and this will keep the noise down when the heating is running
I hope this helps.
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It would be valuable to the OP and other owners if those who know where the U3 bleeders all are, place that valuable info on forums for other owners to make a note of in their manuals.
Thank you, John C for providing owners with that info.
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Having never experienced Alde heating we had what we thought was a very effective system. However, I happened to mention the fact that on start up it was just a tad noisy, the dealership told me it might need bleeding and told me how to do it. It was suggested we find a hill and park the van nose down and perform the task on gas, quicker to heat up we were told. Was a bit of a pain finding all the bleed nipples and accessing them but once done it was so much better, quieter and quicker to heat up too. The man in the service department also said we may need to top the liquid up through out the task and that he would send me a bottle of fluid out free of charge. He advised that we should just continue to use the heating as it was and leaving the bleeding until the bottle arrived just to be sure of not sucking more air into the system. The advice was to check the reservoir and just add a little liquid as needed after each bleed point had been purged.The level did drop in the header tank, particularly when we found where most of the air was trapped (this was in the bathroom radiator). Thought initially it would need the whole bottle but level was back to 'normal' with only about 300ml actually required. He was right, the system now worked even better than before and almost silently.
On a side note, our system also has a heat exchanger on the vehicle engine which is an absolute delight when touring in the colder months like now. Cab and habitation zones toasty warm during transit and on arrival! Long gone are those days of just the cab heater failing to keep the whole of the van warm. I'm told you can even use our system on gas whilst travelling too but really not needed this feature. I think I'm a little perturbed with the thought of leaving the gas switched on and afterall, that engine heat exchanger does cope fabulously even with temperature around zero outside. Maybe others can help quell my concerns about travelling and using that collision gas cut out system.
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So do I, ET, but it hasn’t been necessary to use it yet
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John Connell - thank you for your detailed response which is most helpful. I will have a look at it when we get home and in the meantime, make do with the ‘half power’ situation which is just coping at the moment.
Richard
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Might not be exactly the same model but this may help, the principles and methods are the same.
http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_3020_user.pdf
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As a sequel to this - and a thank you to all those who assisted - I have now had chance to investigate further, having got back home. Thanks to John Connell with his advice on where the bleed points where in a U3 Barcelona / Valencia. I can confirm that they are behind the seat next to the door - under the fixed bed in the corner next to the bathroom (a pig to get at because it can only be accessed with the bed frame down, which means removing the mattress and 'balancing' on the slats!) and on the top of the bathroom radiator.
The technician at Yorkshire Caravans at Bawtry advised me to lift the front of the van as far as possible because it is almost impossible to get a twin axle into a suitable 'nose down' position; run the heating on pump speed 5 with no power to the heater itself for 20 minutes - let it settle and then bleed the pipework. I knew it wouldn't work because the most forward bleed valve is nowhere near the highest point of the van when in this position - and it didn't!!
So - another 4 hour return trip to Bawtry planned for Friday when they can sort it out. I'm not a particularly happy womble!
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Sorry to hear that you are still having problems.
you don’t have to have a great tilt on the van, just enough so that any air can make its way towards the bleed points.
i would’ve thought that lowering the jokey wheel even on a twin axle will allow the suspension to have a slight nose down attitude.
id be inclined to run the back set of wheels up on some levelling ramps if you have them to help.
Best of luck,
John
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I personally personally would also have the heat on (set low ), that way you would be able to feel where the air is due to different temperatures,
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Thanks John. I'm going to have one final go today - and use both Lock 'n Level air bags I have - to lift the back wheels and hope that will be enough to get the right amount of elevation with the jockey wheel right down. I'll let you know how I get on!
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John - done as you suggested using two Lock 'n Level air bags which gave a height difference between front and back wheels of something like 4 inches - so definitely 'nose-down'!! Followed Alde instructions to the letter but still didn't get any air out whatsoever. Resigned to the trip to Bawtry on Friday but past performance doesn't fill me with confidence. Next step will probably be a local mobile engineer who is an Alde specialist (so his advertising blurb says) and if he can fix it then YC will be getting a bill! Thanks for your help, nevertheless.
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Hi Richard,
If you haven’t been able to rectify this, it does makes me wonder if there is another problem.
Could be a pump issue or a blockage.
There are few things that could be checked, but I can imagine that your patients must be well and truly drained by now and might be best to get it back to the dealer to rectify. If it’s something they’ve caused, then best they find it and fix it.
The system is a very simple one, only complicated by The need to pass the entrance and locker doors, which is the reason for the two main air vent/ bleed points.
sorry that I couldn’t help you solve it.
regards
john
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If you haven’t already I would strongly recommend you give Alde a call. They have a reputation for being genuinely helpful. Just one thing I would query in your original post is your comment about the system previously heating up with a whoosh, I don’t think that the system heats up that quickly as it has to heat the fluid which then heats the air.
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