More on caravan versus motorhome
Comments
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I have had a Swift Kon-tiki for nearly 3 years now. Up to now no damp, but we did have some issue's with the build quality of the interior. I do think the UK MH industry needs to look into their build quality compared to EU built motorhomes. But the way you read some forums you would think no EU built motorhomes had any problems whatsoever.
Last year in France I was at a camp site and I also spoke to a few people who had problems with EU motorhomes. But they all had one thing in common, they were all newish motorhomes. Not one of the older EU motorhomes had any major problems. I think with all motorhome manufactures (UK and EU) trying to save weight the build quality is suffering.
I went to the MH show in the NEC earlier this to look at other marques and was not impressed with any of the UK built motorhomes and to be fair, none of the EU built motorhomes faired any better until you went into the higher price bracket.
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When we tried the "dark side" two in nine years,that was one of the things we missed ,the space a caravan afforded for the length,our good friends have a Bailey motor caravan,and because of the length tow a car,but when away with us,always leave the car at home,and they are very satisfied with their purchase,,(it seems well put together)but then so is our Bailey caravan
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Actually an interesting debate.......
I have a BMW car & the OH has an Audi so we definitely appreciate a spot of german engineering.........
But most Hymers seem to have a "continental" front lounge which we don't want nor a transverse drop down bed, nor a rear lounge.....
There's probably going to be a Hymer that isn't any of those (?)..... I haven't looked, but the ones I see seem to be (far) more expensive than Elddis or Autotrail vans......
Whilst fully understanding there is possibly a reason for this, someone (like me for instance) would be faced with diverting a much larger proportion of the family budget to buy a new Hymer, or buying a (noticeably) secondhand Hymer rather than a new UK van.
Since they are both built on the same base I would prefer the new van........after all I might get to retire one day and want to drive it round southern europe for 20 years......
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my last two company cars were Audis, my last one was four years old and about to come to the end of its lease at the time i retired...
i bought it from the lease company, ran it for over 100k miles, gave it to my son who has added another 30k miles...
at over 15 yrs old, it appears to remain totally bullet proof.
if i was in the market for another car, i would rather a two year old Audi than (say) a new Vauxhall...
yes, an older 'premium' MH would have done (say) three/four years worth of mileage, but for many owners this might only amount to a total of 15-20k miles....or even much less....so, nothing for a commercial base designed to run flat out for 200k miles plus...so, in the value equation, is there a comparison between (say) a 2013/4 Hymer/Carthago and a new Elddis?.....no, there is no comparison, its the premium van every time.
are there currently any 20yr old Elddis vans in existence, possibly, but cant remember how long theyve been in the MH market....
will there ever be (trundling around Southern Europe)?.... anyone's guess.
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well Practical Motorhome is about as limp a critical publication as its sister, Practical Caravan. if their surveys as as 'thorough' as their tests, this wont be particularly skin deep....
Why that, BB? Is it because their survey doesn't agree with you "it's always better over there" out look, I wonder?
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Nellie, not at all, i actually bought the mag for a couple of months but it really doesnt get stuck in....however, in that respect, its no different to the Club mags, where the 'tests' are nothing more than a review (rehash) of the manufacturers latest crib sheet...
things arent always necessarily 'better over there' but, in terms of MHing and MHs, they are...IMHO, of course.
...and compared to a (German) publication like Promobil, the 'over there' mag gets my vote over PC, too....
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We have had caravans for over 30 years, now a MH for 5 years. Totally happy with both.
Like some on here we are not keen on the continental van layout, by that I mean we don't like the drop down beds, we don't like the transverse double bed or the island beds (don't offer enough room either side of bed) so that leaves us with twin singles which we prefer as they offer more space in the van, are easier to make beds and to access the overhead lockers.
We would (if changing) like a garage for the 2 new Ebikes. Which would mean the MH would be 7m + long with twin singles over the garage beds. Great for those who are still physically able to climb into a high bed (we are) but not so easy for those who are not.
The other thing we don't like about continental vans is the little kitchen area, with the oven/grill at knee height, or so high its bordering on dangerous. Also the lounge/cab area, not keen on sitting trying to relax in a cab while there is 5m's of van not being used, what a waste.
The problem with this type of MH is the size, there will be some sites/pitches where it will be a tight fit and will leave you very little space to 'enjoy' your stay.
What suits one person doesn't necessarily suit another, so its a good thing there is lots of choice out there.
By the way we also have a Bailey, very happy with it. We have had damp behind the wheel arches, now fixed. Would I buy another? probably not as we don't like the newer models, also their customer service leaves a lot to be desired. Would we buy foreign made probably if they made something we liked. Having owned both Audi and Mercedes cars, lived in Germany for 20 years you bet.
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no need, very mild at 12 deg down here, thanks
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if i was in the market for another car, i would rather a two year old Audi than (say) a new Vauxhall...
But of course BB you are not making a like for like comparison are you....
(A cynic might suggest you realise that, but are desperate to further your "everything's better over there" argument......
)A two year old Audi is still an Audi, whereas a Vauxhall is, well, a Vauxhall.....
But a Hymer is substantially the same as an Elddis, or whatever, as in all the real engineering bits are the same, Peugeot or Fiat probably and your four year old Fiat Hymer already needs new cam belt, tensioners etc,
OK your Hymer would have some posh double dove-tailed cupboards etc, but it's a lot of money for some fancy woodwork....
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as was stated upthread, this is an interesting thread as there are so many requirements, so many designs, yet its not always possible to marry the two together.
it may be that what is missing is a rear lounge van, with garage for bikes underneath, sofas long enough to double as single beds, but not too high, with a length of around 6.5m and Teutonic build quality.
several Brits build the rear bit but lack decent storage, especially for things like bikes, several Continentals have worked out how to incorporate a garage under a rear lounge but dont have long enough sofas for single beds as this would add to the length.
there are some vans that come pretty close but would fall down as one of these requirements is missing.
as TT says, the Fiat (or Peugeot) base is a (fairly) common demoninator...and a very good MH base vehicle it is.
so, taking this out of the equation (and the easy to resolve required 'service' which anyone would surely work into any deal) the differences then become those associated with the respective brands' coachbuilding skills.
so, Im afraid, the Hymer will always be a Hymer and the Elddis will always be, well, an Eldiss
....unless Hymer decide to rebrand it, in which case there really will be no 20yr old Eldiss around...
still, see you in Spain in 20yrs but perhaps not in an Elddis
merry Christmas, to you and yours
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still, see you in Spain in 20yrs but perhaps not in an Elddis
I'm hoping to retire in 11 years BB.......
If the apprentice they give the belt change job to can keep your German truck on the road for that long (
) I might see you in Spain before then........I would be quite happy to be there (in a newer cos it's cheaper..
) Elddis.......Merry Christmas...!
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see you in 11 then!.....i'll hang on....
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Each to their own but as far as this subject goes I'm with you TT.
I would rather have two (or three) Elddis vans over a 20 year period than one Hymer. It's OK saying a van will go for 200,000 miles plus when used on a daily basis....but that's where the argument for a motorhome sometimes fails. Take it out once a month and you'll find them not so robust. We both have to work for a living and we get away when we can, but we're lucky to do 3,000 miles a year in our van.
Apart from the fact that I couldn't afford a new Hymer we don't particularly like the layouts either. Our two year old Elddis (bought new) suits us in both layout and base van quality. I know it's not the most expensive van in the world but who cares, it still takes us where we want to go and gives us great enjoyment.
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i wasnt actually advocating multiple Elddis' over a single Hymer merely that a three/four yr old one might still have more life left than a new Elddis, and should a buyer wish to aspire to a Hymer, rather than to an Eldiss Aspire, taking a 3/4 yr old model might do the job.
either way, as your post suggests, the prospective purchasers are so different (on just about every front) for the comparisons to be of interest only to those discussing the point on a forum
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The base vehicle is the same so you may well get 200,000 miles out of any make of van either Eldiss/Hymer/SWIFT/KNAUS etc. however not sure the British makes would still be as good inside. Layout, interior colours and price are a personal choice so no one should be put down to choose one over the other.
I think the continental vans are better thought out, better put together and IMHO have better layouts because of this. They put the work into making a good base van but then you pay to have the bells and whistles, unlike British MH's which have all the bells and whistles but lack build quality and they also seem to take a caravan and plonk it on the back of a truck, saw a new Bailey Autograph yesterday and driving up from behind we did literally think it was a caravan till we went past it...
BB you may well see 20 year old Hymers out there but that does not mean they are still waterproof, just better put together to last the distance though.
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saw a new Bailey Autograph yesterday and driving up from behind we did literally think it was a caravan till we went past it..
Maybe the people who buy them do so because they like the style and layout of them, we did. We have had ours for 5 years now and bought it because we like the layout, as I said up thread we don't like the layout of the continental vans, not all of them have great build quality we met enough while traveling to know that they too suffer 'issues'
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Have looked at lots of continental motorhomes and frankly, I don’t like them. Habitation door on wrong side, only two or three burners on hob, and often the rear wheel arch is in the shower. Oh and no microwave.
Apart from that I’m pretty opened minded.
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Habitation door is always on the correct side when over there
and never had a problem with it over here!!We have 3 burners and have never used more than 2 at a time, we don't use a microwave at home so do not want to waste space in a van with one, prefer to have the extra storage.
As for the wheel arch, yes if the shower is a midships then unfortunately all vans would have the problem unless you are on a long tag axle chassis.
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I agree TG as I said in my post layout, interior colours etc are all personal choices and am not demeaning anyone who buys one just saying the UK builders just seem to take the caravan layout into a MH and not think about any design as much as the continentals with Bailey seemingly literally plonking a caravan on the back of a chassis. Personally we cannot stand the orange wood interiors of Carthago's but I know some people on here love them, again personal choice
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Lol, Michael thats because it's real
personally not a huge fan of the MFI look...
however, i agree with many of your observations..
in a finite space, layouts are governed by key priorities, generally in the sleeping arangements and the amount of 'larger storage' space required.
vans with fixed beds (singles, transverse, island) can (generally) be categorised into two 'styles'....'continental' (with large garages under said beds) which means being at the rear and ablitions ahead of them, or 'uk' with the bathroom at the end, and the beds ahead, which prevents a garage-type storage area.
similarly, vans without fixed beds generally have poor external storage (for large items) due to lack of actual space or poor external access.
these vans give larger more open lounges, but require the beds to be made up and bedding to be stored somewhere other than the bed.
drop down beds have allowed designers to give a 'fixed bed' scenario to a previously non fixed bed design, but the issues of poor storage are not addressed in this way, though bedding can be kept on the bed.
customer 'likes and dislikes' will depend on which elements they place priorities and which layouts they tend to favour.
we happen to like a fixed bed layout and also wanted a garage for bikes. once this 'priority' has been dialled in, its tricky to be able to squeeze a palatial lounge out of a van of 6.4m, which, combined with its slimmer width, was another design 'want'.
switch the priority to the lounge and designs change....twin sofas appear (front or rear) and other kit is built at the opposite end of the van.
kitchens and bathrooms appear abbutting against the cab seats or across the rear.
this results in bed making every day and storing storing said bedding, which eats into the poor overall total storage...
none of these designs (and myriad others) are right or wrong, merely each has its advantages (to its particular purchaser) and its compromises....what one customer sees as a must have, another see as a compromise....
perhaps a van with a large open front lounge (with drop down bed for guests), large kitchen amidships, low level single beds with washroom behind and then a garage behind that might satisfy most....but this would be a very large van....and wouldn't be easy to use daily nor satisfy rear lounge afficionados...
not sure id put 'door on the wrong side' as a plus or a minus as it's obviously 'correct' when abroad nor doesn't seem to be an issue ('wrong') when in the uk, we just park 'nose in or nose out' to suit us, so even with the door on the 'correct side' it still wouldn't govern which way round we pitched.
as it happens, with the way the van gets parked at home, having the door on the right gives us better acces from the house, but it would never be a design 'want' nor deal breaker..
we only have three burners on our hob, i wonder what it is that we cant cook as we seem to only ever use one or two....steamers are great for doing different veg etc...again, surely not something tha that would break a deal?
similarly, we dont have a microwave but i cant say we've missed it..we have one at home but are not what i call 'microwave chefs'. any frozen stuff we want for an evening meal can be thawed overnight or throughout the day. others may be much more dependent on one, but even a van without one could be modified easily by any savvy dealer wanting to shake a customer's hand?
shower doesnt seem to be compromised by wheel arch, though i have seen some that are, agree this would annoy...and as we use the van shower regularly, it might vause me to look elsewhere....but as i said earlier, this is a result of a rear fixed bed design pushing the shower forward.
still, its good to see designers trying to respond to our seemingly limitless demand for 'all things to all men' wish lists....
good hunting to anyone looking for a winter bargain....
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Bailey (and Swift, Elddis etc) make their MH look like their caravans to ease the transition from one to another as their customers change styles of vanning.
if they looked starkly different, it might be a step too far for those who are comfortable with the brand.
i guess its a rare thing for a uk brand caravan owner to head out and research (say) a german or french MH, although im sure it happens more if theyve lost faith in the brand for whatever reason.
by the same token those who didnt come from caravanning wouldn't have any pre-conception of what a 'van' should look like and go into the market place with (perhaps) a more open mind, eventually selecting something 'they like' rather than having 'what theyve always had'.
the percentage of any brand's customer moving from one of their products to another must be very high. the brands just make this as easy as possible, hence the 'corporate' look and feel.
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I believe that the UK manufacturers recognise that there is a difference between what British motorhome/caravan users want and what continental users want. As we mainly tour abroad I look at hundreds of different continental mortorhomes and almost without exception our Autosleepers is different in having no garage and plenty of lounge/kitchen space. It seems that the lifestyle "over there" is different with the emphasis on outdoor living so the garage is essential for storing bikes, loungers etc. and the indoor space is limited because most of the time it isn't needed.
What happens when it rains you may ask? the Brits on their Club sites which they have had to book, sit indoors watching TV and hoping it stops soon. The Germans go home because it isn't too far. We go further South until the rain stops!
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Hitch, I like your style. Happy (sunny) touring in 2018
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Bailey did build a 'continental' style MH, it had a garage, twin singles above, with the usual front turn round driving seats and small kitchen. It was dropped after the first build as it was not popular.
They have and still do build models with drop down beds, they are popular but the owners are not keen on them in winter, it seems they have to leave the bed down when not in use as the mattress gets mouldy/damp. When in use in winter (for a family) again the issue is that the drop down bed is very cold as it has to be raised during the day to use the lounge beneath, which means when they get into bed at night the bed and bedding is cold.
Not all those that own British style MH have come from a caravan back ground, although I will agree that some do, but surely that could be said of all makes. Within the Bailey motorhome group there are many that have come from other makes of MH's both British and Continental.
Our style of MH is rear lounge with twin couches which we make into beds at night time, takes about 3 mins to do so. We have great storage in the MH, plenty of overhead lockers, plenty of cupboards and a very good bathroom. No we don't have a garage for the bikes but we didn't buy the MH for the bikes we bought it for our use.
As we tour both UK and abroad it has to work for both 'styles' of touring which it does very well. We have plenty of space during the day and comfy warm beds at night. The kitchen has all the items I want/need and space enough to work in, when abroad I do tend to cook outside, however in the UK its nice to have the choice of still being able to cook and prep inside. The cab area is not a waste of space during the day when on site as we can turn the seats if we wish to. There is NO space that is only used for 1 specific activity other than the bathroom.
In the past we have had all types of van layout, fixed side bed, fixed singles, made up lounge beds, the only one we didn't like was the side bed. Having fixed beds is great but it makes for a much larger van than we want these days, at least 1 third of the van is only used for 8 hours of a night time. If we were to site a van then yes this is the type we would choose but not for touring.
Its a good job we all like different styles, so please let this not be 'one is better than another'. They all have their place in the market or they wouldn't make them.
Happy New Year to all when it comes, we'll be away soon afterwards in our 'British' made MH
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TG - a well thought out post.............
But resistance is futile......
To some.....German is better. Full stop.
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...as TG says (quite rightly) not better but different.
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wash your mouth out
can you say that about other than uk vans
