Hybrid cars - a curiosity question re pitches
Comments
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I believe CAMHC have a stated position on this but not sure i want to search this site to find it, but it strikes me that a lot of people have raised a lot of valid issues that CAMHC should address, certainly the 1 and only EV i have seen charging on site was plugged directly into the bollard if as peedee states there is a potential for this type of charging to draw 15.2 amps it does not leave much margin for switching anything else on, blow your own caravan up if you must, but not the bollard I could possibly be attached too.
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sorry brue, my guess is you are quite used to EV's and their workings, my reply was supposed to be a bit "tongue in cheek", my only real concern is the ongoing cost and the potential it has to increase pitch fees, and the amatuers out there who we still see plugging into the bollard dragging the cable through the wet grass and then attaching to the caravan
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The fridge, which is always on of course, is the thing that would use most electricity. Especially if you have one of the bigger ones.
We go to Germany quite a lot, where metered electricity is fairly common, and the kwhs are very expensive, no rules on resale of electricity over there!
So we have a small device in our van that measures how much we use, so we do not get a shock bill at the end of a stay. We therefore know that to run our tall fridge/freezer, the charger, and a few lights, uses almost 4kwh per 24 hours. depending on the unit charge, this would cost anywhere between 40 and 60 pence per day in UK.
If you then start cooking with electricity, and heating water, add in some space heating when chilly, the kwhs soon mount up. We just had 4/5 weeks away recently, the weather was mixed, our device tells us we used an average of 15kwhs per 24 hours......we do wash up and frequently shower in the van.
Were we to be away when it was very cold, we would use a lot more, 40 +kwhs is quite possible in winter, so now the cost could be £4-£6 per 24 hours, or more.
In winter, if running heating and HW on electricity, there would not be a lot left over for charging an EV from the bollard, you would need to run some appliances on gas.
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Actually, I do not think they have really considered all the implications.
There is going to be a lot more kwhs used as more people move to EVs, it will all have to be paid for somehow!
The vehicle could be left on charge all night when power is not being used for other things like heating, so unlikely to trip the EHU, but still running up the bill.
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But it won't be on charge all night and probably not enough to significantly raise the site fuel bills. At present I think there are probably heavy EHU users and people like ourselves who don't use so much but we subsidise everyone else. When you think of facility blocks running heating and extractors 24 hrs etc it might be that the club will go down the route of using solar panels etc. to ease the costs in the long run. Can't see into the future but I would think change is the only predictable element.
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I read that a standard 13 amp socket with put about 12 miles range into a Nissan Leaf in an hour. The most that I am normally likely to do in a day from site would be 70 miles (often 40 or less). So come in late afternoon in Autumn and run heating on gas till bed time and then back on electric. Alternatively plug car in at 11pm bedtime on a 6 hour timer. Warm bedding and heating back on at 5am. Should work OK. When we are away for 2 weeks over Christmas I doubt that we drive much more than 100 miles and so an hour a day should be fine.
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The ones that are simply without range extender. I know little about EV cars Brue but imagine that in general those running on battery will be similar in usage.
For models with a range extender I presume that these would only be used for much longer runs than a day out from a site?
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I don't see a supply problem at present but as these cars get more popular there could well be.
Where is the country going to get all the extra electricity needed when we all have to have EVs? Demand is already almost equaling supply in certain parts of the country at peak use times.
As far as the Club is concerned, the bills will only move one way and pitch fees will no doubt have to increase to cover that. I should think there are heavy seasonal pitch users that are already using a fair chunk of their pitch fee on electricity, so the Club could be making a bit of a loss overall there!
Like PD said, metering seasonal pitch use is already happening elsewhere, if it was not a problem there would be no need to do so.
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As I said earlier, the cost of fully recharging a Nissan Leaf is £3.75. Whilst I agree that most people will only be topping up I was thinking a bit further ahead to larger hybrids as towing vehicles. The recharge cost then becomes significant and the Club would need to address it.
The other point is that if you are charging by plugging into a socket on your van then you are limited by the rating of that circuit and any other power being drawn so to an extent it is self limiting.
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I can't see that a range extender will make much difference. I would expect sufficient battery power for (say) a 70 mile day trip and back to plug into caravan why would folk need the range extender in that situation?
Just seen your avatar Brue, you've gone all harvest festival
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The other point is that if you are charging by plugging into a socket on your van then you are limited by the rating of that circuit and any other power being drawn so to an extent it is self limiting.
At present pitch EHU power usage is probably not that great for much of the year. However with electric vehicles charging that changes considerably. In UK little electric used for heating for much of the season. Even in December I have happily run heating on 1kw and it has cut out and in. In summer and even in much of Autumn and spring in many areas the demand is not that high.
K was sayig that during September he was using 15kw a day. charging a car could double that perhaps to 30kw per day
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I thought that it is time, at least for me to get my mind clear, to nail down some real figures and I have chosen because I can access information, to use BMW's i3 data sheet (*1) to do this task.
This vehicle in electric mode has a claimed “New European Driving Cycle” combined consumption figure of 13.6 kWh per 100 km. So in more digestible terms a normal driving style trip out of 62 miles will use 13.6 units of electricity.
If we assume the typical cost of electricity for resale is 17p per unit (*2) then that 62 mile trip out costs £2.31 to recharge.
This vehicle has a 33kWh battery and to 80% fully recharge on a 16Amp mains hookup takes 7.2 hours.
Should the user need or chose to do this they could when a hook up is not used for anything else. Whatever which way if they take on an 80% full charge they would use £4.49p of energy, or if going for a 100% full charge £5.61.
This BMW is of course a modest vehicle with 1320kg kerb weight in no way going to be towing a van. With a vehicle of the mass to tow, coupled with nearly its own weight in tow these costings will I suggest be likely to about double.
Assuming the EV user will still place typical camping user demands on the EHU day time and evenings, then add on recharging their vehicle, their energy take will be anything but trivial.
*1) Ref document: https://www.bmw.com/en/all-models/bmw-i/i3/2017/technical-data.html#tab-0
*2) A figure a friend with a commercial campsite claims for resale they are charged by their utility.
Domestic charges I know can be lower, plus there charging for additional energy is all convoluted by standing charges.4 -
Don't think I have quite got my head round this charging business! How does the EV know it is connected to a slow charger or a fast charger? Is there some kind of selector switch in the car? The rating of the charger could be the output not the input as I have used in the above example. If it is the output what is the voltage? Much to learn.
peedee
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No they wouldn't need the range extender for low mileage trips. The RE kicks in when the battery needs topping up on longer journeys. The car also has regenerative braking which also tops up the battery. That us why text book guessing about power use on site for charging can't be simple but I am giving people some idea by saying EHU use will be low.
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The charging tech is out there, I have an IQ charger that recognises the device it's charging & gives the optimum charge
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Hi, we tow with an Outlander PHEV. The range on battery power is about 25 miles depending upon the season and how it is driven. That suits our needs most days and we rarely have to put petrol in.
Whilst towing, the battery runs out quickly, in much less than 25 miles. When we got the car, there was a little confusion as to whether we were allowed to charge onsite and we always asked first.
We now charge via a lead between car and van, through the kitchen window into one of the vans 3 pin sockets. We only do this when going to bed and everything else is off. Never had any tripping issues.
It take a maximum of 6 hours at 10amps to fully recharge, which I understand to cost less than or maybe around £1.
As we still work full time, we do not get away as much as we'd like and also use sites other than CAMC. So our charging cost to the club is minimal.
The discussion over charging ( sorry couldn't avoid the pun ) me to charge my PHEV is hugely complicated, obviously depending upon our views. Although I personally would be quite happy to pay the £1 each time.
One added benefit of the PHEV is being able sneak off-site early door to get papers or rolls and not have to start the petrol / diesel ICE. 😉
Cheers, Alex.
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Quoting: "It takes a maximum of 6 hours at 10amps to fully recharge, which I understand to cost less than or maybe around £1."
If it takes the 6 hours at 10 amps and electricity for resale is priced at 17p per unit, the maths give a rather different cost.
230 Volts x 10 Amps x 6 hours = 13800 watt hr = 13.8 units
At £0.17p per unit, 13.8 x 0.17 = £2.35
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I think cost will be closer to £2 not £1.
Ok with a little research I think I now understand the difference between fast and slow charging. What was bugging me was how the power taken from a hook up was controlled between the two. It's simpler than I thought and it is impossible to fast charge direct from an A.C. (230v) source. All EV come with an on board charger for use on hooking up to a domestic mains supply but not all EVs can be fast charged. Fast charging is done at DC from an external charger and the on board charger is simply bypassed.
In my viwe there is still a high risk of tripping pitch hook ups using an on board charger especially with nearly flat batteries
peedee
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It is the rate a friend who owns a small commercial site claims their site is charged for the power they "resell" by metering. May 2017
I have no idea what the charges are made to the Caravan Club as arguably at the moment they don't "resell" electricity, they "give it away", so could be treated differently.
The C&CC charge an additional £4.10 for an EHU [on grass] so this hints strongly that the pricing is not cheap?
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Costs to small business users are often far higher than the domestic equivalent. For example, we pay 18p per day plus 12p per kwh, while the Guide Hall OH looks after pay 24p per day plus 15p per kwh.
Only the very big industrial users can negotiate significantly lower rates.
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