Mountain out of a molehill
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No I am Not suggesting that the traps are lethal to anything else, I used the word to identify the trap as non-humane in the sence that it kills rather than capture. My issue is this is a rual site in the forest with lots of wildlife and one of the reasons that it is our favourite sites. I am not convinced that they are problem HERE but might be elsewhere. have never seen traps here before.
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Perhaps the do gooders want farmers to go back to the old ways. Put down strychnine. At least they would not see the control and would not be aware of the totally indiscriminate way it worked. A bit like now having to use snares to control foxes. Superb totally indiscriminate catchers of everything from hares, domestic cat and upwards.it what happens after those with no knowledge decide how the countryside needs controlling.
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The OP was talking about mole catching not fox hunting.
Merve is right about the problems with mole tunnels. We have moles and have to be careful where we walk when they are active, the club might have to prevent sinkage. But as Wildwood says it is possible to live with it too.
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Snares?, slow strangulation of an Animal because it's not liked by certain groups. That's not a convincing argument Fish. Control?, for what reason does a Fox doing what it is designed to do(apex predator) need to be controlled exactly?
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Let's face it if wasn't for molehills the majority of people wouldn't know they existed. In my lifetime I haven't fallen down or had any issues with mole runs. I believe that more people receive injuries from tripping over rabbit holes than falling down mole runs.
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This is simply yet another liability issue.
Moles feed near the surface and can create the situation where apparently solid ground can collapse when weight is placed on it. Rabbits burrow deeply and rarely cause collapse. The rabbit holes are visible.
A person walking on mole ground could have the surface give way leading to a twisted ankle, or a broken hip, or serious or fatal head injury when they hit something solid. Rabbit holes are a trip hazard but are visible and persons can take care about them. Mole ground is not.
I would expect the Club's Public Liability insurers have a standard clause about presence of moles and action to be taken.
However, seeing someone elses caravan or tow car sink into seemingly solid ground would provide some live action for the curtain tritchers.
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Again Rocky no knowledge. The snares now are non strangulation. However no one is going to put his hands near a tethered animal. Shooting is the only option once caught regardless of spec ies. Here in the countryside foxes are not cuddly animals but the cause of real damage and control is necessary. Unfortunately some politicians and hysterical people took away our most humane way of control in these mountain and forested areas.
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I've seen it Fish, no knowledge? Try real time visual knowledge.
There's only one true way to control any wild creature-let nature sort it.
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Rocky, maybe, as a pest controller of 25yrs experience in these matters, I might offer a few pointers. Firstly, nature doesn't always sort the problem. So why should control be used? Apex predators like the fox and the mink are the prime examples. Given free run in an area, these creatures will eat everything possible therefore depleting the populations until they themselves have overwhelmed and overpopulated the area leading to starvation and suffering. Mink are a particular example- mink will kill everything on and in a pond before starvation drives it out- are we to allow that? The fox is the same- all you end up with is starving foxes. Control isn't about eradicating a species its about controlling the numbers for their own good. Going back to the mole question- a mole in the right place is no problem at all and should be allowed to live it's life in an undisturbed environment but when it causes serious damage to property or is a potential danger to horses, people etc by undermining the sub soils it has to be stopped. Wasn't there a King who was killed when his horse tripped on a molehill?? This argument has raged for years about man taking an active role in ensuring a 'balance' in nature. As long as it is sensible, proportionate and well policed, then the advantages can be great. Finally, the Mink were let out by well meaning if not well informed people and let out into an environment where everything was a target. These idiots are responsible for the destruction of large swathes of English wildlife - far far more than the farmer or pest controller is responsible for. I know, I've seen it- a beautiful pond lake, or stretch of river completely stripped of it wildlife because of the arrival of a voracious killer. Sorry, but control is a fact of life.
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Control may be a fact of life Merve but it don't mean I should either like or agree with it. I think 'Humans' have been responsible more for altering the face of the Worlds Animal populations than other Animals have. Nature does always sort out the over population issues-naturally. The demise of Kings mean nothing to me in the big scheme of things I'm afraid, it adds no weight to any argument at all.
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I had a quick look at why these animals are trapped and the following was stated by a mole trapper and from his experiences.
"It is the vast underground network of tunnels and piles of soil that moles create which give us cause for concern. A single mole can excavate around eighteen feet of tunnel in an hour and are active for periods of four to five hours both day and night which equates to around 200 feet of tunnel system in 24 hours, now that’s a lot of soil which means a lot of mole hills"
Also for amenity areas, which I assume the Club Insurers may require.
Some of the mole control carried out on amenity areas can be for purely aesthetic reasons, but the majority is carried out for practical, financial or safety reasons, for example moles on a bowling green, cricket pitch, football pitch, or golf course is simply impractical, it may result in a loss of revenue to the facility providers and cause damage to grass cutting machinery. In public gardens or parks walkers, joggers, the elderly or children may trip on the uneven ground, the moles may undermine footpaths or wall footings and members of the public could be at risk of injury. .
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I agree that nature sorts it out in the end but at what cost to the animals Rocks? That's what I meant in my post- it doesn't always sort it out in the best way! Surely it's best to cull some so the others have a decent chance of a life or is it better to see them all starving?? I used the fall of a King as an example mate- it could equally have been David Smith- no life is more precious than another! No , you don't have to agree with it and you don't have to like it but surely accept it as being the best of a bad job? It would be great if these things didn't happen but life just ain't like that.
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As usual those who understand the countryside from watching Springwatch etc. will not accept that in the real world CONTROL is exercised for the good of the majority. Ground nesting birds are lost because of the over depradation by foxes and corvids, most so in Nature reserves where nature runs wild.
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Easy answer Merve, no I don't accept it at all. Nature is the best way. I don't accept your-'cull some to give others a chance' either. You are a 'vermin' controller-you cull/kill it's not in your remit to give anything a chance. You have your opinion I accept that is your right. However I totally disagree with it. . . .As is my right.
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Fish, your constant repeating of the put down of anyone who doesn't hold your views mean nothing to me. In fact you putting me & many others down shows to me I'm/we're right. If anyone needs to resort to childish attacks then they've already surrendered. I may not agree with Merve but I respect His opinion because He does it with returned respect. It's what grown ups do.
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There are some animals that will for pleasure and not for food. Mink and foxes will kill everything they can find and leave the carcases to rot without eating a thing. How many of the do-gooders have seen inside a hen house after a fox has killed over 200 birds?
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I've got Chickens Nav, I've had them for decades, never lost one to predation, why?, because I make it near impossible for a predator to get in, I care about the Chickens. That old chestnut of nasty Fox is tantamount to-'because a Chicken owner isn't bothered about their Chickens welfare due to costs just kill the predator that is doing what Nature designed it for'. Nature isn't a Disney movie-nasty Fox but wonderful Chicken little. Anthropomorphising Animals don't help. They are all trying to survive, it's down to the food chain.
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Regardless of the merits or otherwise of this control issue I always thought that any such controlling of wildlife at Sandringham would have to be done with approval of the estate. I stayed at Sandringham a few years ago and the wardens told me they couldn't do anything to control the Rabbits or Woodpigeons without authority from the Sandringham estate. The club were not allowed to make unilateral decisions on culling. Is this still not the case here?
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If like me you've ever put your leg down a well hidden rabbit hole by mistake you'll find it's a very painful experience but not for the rabbit! Unfortunately moles can have the same effect. If things get out of control where the public have access on a site it's an unfortunate situation that will probably need some consideration and action.
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Hi all, thank you all for your comments to my post. I have had a responce from CAMC however as it was sent directly to me I feel that it would be wrong to totally reproduce it here but basically they say that they would not normally take such action against wildlife but on some sites including Sandringham Estate they have had increase in mole activity which has become unmanageable so have had to use pest control. I still believe that it is not right but at least have now received an explanation. I am also awaiting a response from there complaints team.
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That's good that you have had a reply Unicorns. It may not be the reply you wanted but they have been diligent in replying- that's good. Some animals just get in the wrong place. It's a shame but it happens. I used to be very busy with moles on silage land and in those days it was strychnine and worms. Absolutely vital to keep them off silage land so the molehills don't get scooped up with the cut silage- it can cost a farmer hundreds no, thousands of pounds if the soil ends up in the clamps with the grass- all to do with the wrong bacteria (anaerobic) surviving in the silage when the oxygen is pressed out- it turns it into an uneatable slop!
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There is definitely a truth to that Rocks. It is definitely up to the owner to protect his birds. Mine are in an Egloo which is impregnable to foxes but there is always an exception to the rule. 3 Christmas's ago I was in Scotland at my daughters farm and the chickens had been let out as normal. 30mins later I was picking up dead chickens and necking the injured! A fox had found a way in via a damaged electric fence which we only discovered later! Crafty and Sly they certainly are.
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Thanks for letting us know. The word pest always seems unfair as they are harmless little creatures but they can cause problems.
They do have natural predators including birds of prey, cats and dogs etc. Hope the situation improves as it can be upsetting to those of us who like wildlife.
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This is a valid point fish. Let's look at rats that have invaded islands where ground nesting birds have been virtually wiped out until an effort was made to send people like me with carefully placed rodenticide and traps. The result has been a flourishing of the bird population again and the rats wiped out from that environment. Surely had we allowed nature to sort it out the island would now be populated by starving rats which would predate on each other and no birds would survive for very long. There are times when we have to take action to save the populations of indigenous creatures. There is no difference really between this and getting a balance with foxes. Mink I would wipe out completely as they are a absolute menace to wildlife and a foreign species. They don't belong in our eco system.
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