Caravan industry last chance saloon
After returning to caravanning back in 2002 we have had 6 caravans four of which were new. The first we had and probably the best of the lot was 5 year old ACE Bright star, this was to see whether we would enjoy it again. after 2 years it grab us again, when passing a dealership we spotted an ace 4 berth fix bed fire star, can't quite remember the dealerships name, it was taken over by the dreaded discover leisure. After 12 months of agony of which the shower door was smashed on arrival the front of the fire kept falling off, we decided to cut our losses and a trip to the Manchester show we saw a Lunar Clubman SE ordered one mistake no 1, after numerous faults we decided try Bailey after all the advertising was all caravans will be built this way shortly mistake no 2 first problem the kitchen cabinet side piece cracked in half dealer was brill and sorted it. mirror in the bathroom had to be changed top it all the caravan that shouldn't get water ingress was shown to have 60% damp down the nearside after its second service, this worried the hell out of us, what if at the next service same thing happened to the off side. We decided one last go and ordered a Lunar Clubman SB can't really say this was a mistake more of bad judgement on my part, still it had its problems new wiring loom fitted to the toilet, wouldn't flush after 3 months of use, microwave never worked replaced with new one, offside grab handle light packed in after 3 months normal problem with the door blind loosing its tension Alde heating fault no connection to boiler with Alde help rectified it myself. My bad judgement was not listening to the wife who requires a large bathroom with decent size wardrobe, large lounge and full size bed don't know why she is only 9 stone wet through but needs to be obeyed. So we have finally agreed to try one last time and after along discussion we have decided to go for a 2 berth van, my only stipulation was it had to be newish second hand, wife's reasoning it should have all the faults ironed out, so we have swapped the clubman for a 460 VIP Coachman, admittedly its twelve months older than the Clubman but comes with 12 month warranty on all parts plus Coachman's water ingress warranty its cost me in real money £750 to swap ouch!. Now to the caravan industry get your act together if we find we have problems with this van l will be voting with my feet cutting my losses sticking to fingers up to you. l sincerely hope this works out for us as we love the freedom caravanning gives us
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We had only four caravans in 25 years but three had damp, the last, a new Bailey, disastrously so. Fortunately we did not have too many problems apart from that but have been let down by complete electrical failure on one trip and failed fridge on another (serious in hot climates). We thought that a Motorhome would be a better bet. Fingers crossed so far but we have also heard tales of damp in Motorhomes. We shall see!
I worry most about the trend for fitting more and more electronics. If our control panel fails we would have nothing - no 240volts, no 12volts - we would have to come straight back home; end of trip.
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Hitchglitch. My beef is with the Manufactures not the dealer they seem to produce caravans all of them and expect the dealers and the customers to inspect for faults from new, l started my apprenticeship has an engineer. l moved from the manufacturing department to inspection, every Machine before being sent out to the customer was inspected for any faults and rectified. The caravan industry do the opposite build van and let the dealer and the customer inspect for faults. This is why their are so many disgruntled customers due to the fact when their are problems they are left without a van until the faults are rectified, as we are all aware they can be numerous, which can leave you without a van to use and no holidays or weekends away. Dead money in my view. What other industry works in this way, very few otherwise they would be out of business pretty dam quick. For the life of me l can't see it changing in the near future, not until sale's fall off, or one of them takes the initiative and changes the way it works and thinks the customer is king. Last chance not podding out any more money until they get their act together, maybe its time for the TV programme rip off Britain to get involved, hope they monitor this thread.
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Maybe everyone should have a 'Year of action' where nobody buys a new van..................and lobbies manufacturers as to why. That would really give them something to think about.
Having said that, our caravan was built in 2000 and has been used over the past seventeen years, and is still damp-free!
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I am sure a lot of the problems are caused by the state of our roads. The vibration on a vehicle with only limited suspension, must be horrendous. It is hardly surprising we end up with cracked seals and components coming loose / failing. The manufacturers do have a lot to answer for, but I think there is plenty of blame to go around.
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dont think the myriad of problems we have had is down to the roads. Poor quality, engineering standards as well as cheap, shoddy materials with poor workmanship all in the belief that they will maximise the profit which probably isnt the case with the amount of warranty they have to pay for
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One putt totally agree engineering standards are none existent in the caravan industry, l am sure people will pay that little extra for quality if they feel they will be trouble free. You do have bad dealers but my experience is that the dealers really try to help but its not their problem to put things right from the factory at the pdi stage. Like l said we have now gone the route of a newish second hand van and hope all the fault have been ironed out, if not then its ta tah!, back to the holiday industry. Our intensions is to tour Britain playing has many Golf courses as we can why we have good health. But if this lets us down its off to Portugal three time's a year and maybe a cruise or two. We are keeping our fingers crossed, as l have said we do enjoy caravanning and don't want leave.
Regards
An Apprehensive Couple
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It would be nice to think problems have been dealt with if you buy secondhand but I know people who have cut their losses on almost new vans because of serious water ingress and swapped them in the second year. So those vans are going back on the market for it to happen again? I have thought a lot about swapping my 2008 Abbey but it is still damp free and everything works so I don't feel it sensible to gamble!
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Have had 15 caravans into over 40 years and all were British. First 10 were bought second hand and none leaked or had any serious issues. Worst problems encountered were having to fit a number of new thermocouples to Electrolux fridges and a few new corner steady bushes. The only major water ingress was in our last caravan an Elddis which was also bought from Discover and had to be 90% resealed over the 4 years we kept it as well as many other defects. Luckily Discover had gone bust in the first year and we could have a specialist workshop reseal it. Our latest caravan, a Coachman has only had minor problems in almost 3 years with Thetford fridge and Truma combi boiler. These same faults have been reported in a number of other posts on CT in both British and European caravans and Motorhomes since these are very common components. I do agree the state of the roads and taking speed bumps too fast must be causing considerable stress to the joints but I also think in general quality control in manufacture has declined.
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Could at least part of the problem be due to the British desease of demanding the lowest possible price rather than the highest possible quality? I get the impression from this and other forum that there is a widespread belief that cheapest is always best.
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If as seems to be the case with UK buyers, who want all the "goodies available in the largest available leisure vehicle, that can be towed by a small family saloon and stay within 85% weight, and still load them with everything including the kitchen sink, then the UK makers have an almost impossible task, and with the poor condition of our overcrowded roads,some vehicles will be very "stressed"
compare the above to the MRO weight of some european built vehicles where a single axle can weigh as much as some UK TAs
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It does seem to be a British dilemma. The price of everything and the value of nothing whether it be consumer goods or infrastructure and services. Forty odd years ago people wanted "free" banking. Nothing is ever 'free'.
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A total misinterpretation of my post Boff. If you read it fully you would see I was putting it forward as a contributory factor. We have just come back from France and the shaking the van recieved there was so noticeably less. Some years ago our roads were like that. It is difficult to believe it does not have any impact on damage caused and the number of problems. Certainly the councils pay out hundreds of thousands a year for damage to cars and they have much more efficient suspension.
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You are not correct to imply that European single axle vehicles weigh more than British twin axles. My weighs more if loaded to its plated weight
It is also built on the same Chassis as most British ones an Alko one. But when I arrive on site or field. I do not expect to have to sweep up all the bits that have shaken loose on the British roads
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Interesting discussion, I have just changed my caravan to something newer (4 years old) from a 14 year old one. I bought older with the same thoughts. i.e. all its issues have now manifested themselves and been sorted? Time will tell? I did consider a new mid range model but decided against it.
One thing I will add to the discussion is in my working life I worked in a main dealers that sold new Lorries, and then many years in the Bus & Coach industry. Lorry and Bus bodies are not that dissimilar to how a caravan is built but water ingress was never a major issue and to be honest from what I experienced quite rare.
I would suggest the biggest issue with new caravans is the standard and quality of workmanship during construction. which only the manufactures can improve.
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Ultimately it is the caravan manufacturers responsibility to specify and fit components that are fit for purpose. If the claim is that British roads have deteriorated to third world status, then maybe they need to make chassis out of welded box section as they do. In countries like Australia and USA.
They don't build on light weight chassis's to keep the weight down they do it to keep the cost down it's about £££'s not lb's.
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You only have to read the Blurbs put out by the manufacturers when they launch there new van's each year, sexy new decals, smart cushions etc., all stuff of little or no consequence. Now if a manufacturer advertised that they have employed 5 more quality inspectors on their production line and reject 1 in ? vans on the line, then I for one would go straight to that manufacturer and buy a new van. Whilst we have this superficial garbage I won't be buying another new van from any of the UK manufacturers.
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It seems to be a design problem as well as a quality control problem.
I look at the shape of an aircraft body - an integral whole rounded shape - then I look at the shape of a caravan body - two absolutely flat vertical side panels with a roof panel fixed on top of them. It's a cheap design and a simple design, but it doesn't seem to make for a strong, non-flexing structure.
My Eriba is built around a tubular steel cage frame. It doesn't have joints where one flat panel abuts another. It's a strong structure but it's inevitably dearer. Sometimes you get what you pay for.
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1. Much of the deterioration can be placed firmly at the politicians door. As long as roads are 'flat and black' they are considered to be OK and therefore do not require maintenance. Successive governments have more attractive homes for their cash.
2. The privatisation of Statutory Undertakers, gas, water etc,in the 1980's was accompanied by a massive reduction in reinstatement tolerances, to help the industry. Hence, where Councils had been the final reinstatement body it was handed over to 'the industry' to do its own reinstatement work. This took away the settlement period where the trench would drop a little, to be replenished with the final reinstatement. Of course Mrs T was convinced that contractors could be trusted, as ever!
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In my latter years as Director of a multi million pound engineering business exporting 90% of production overseas we moved from "inspection" and "quality control" to an environment where all employees were trained in Total Qualty Management and Continual Improvement. Everyone became responsible for the Qualty of their work, Inspectors were transferred to added value activities, employee satisfaction indicators climbed and our profitable growth continued apace with new designs satisfying customer demands -even in Japan against locally produced equipment.. For all we know some caravan manufacturers may be looking to go that way-perhaps one day I'll receive an invite to a manufacturing facility to see for myself!
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Tend to agree with Jemmydog. Prevention by Quality Assurance activities is far more efficient than relying on old-fashioned Quality control (inspection). Unfortunately, whilst the British public is happy to pay perhaps £1000 per van on warranty work, nothing much will get done. Many members state that as long as the van is rectified they are happy. I wonder if the same members would be happy to see the price broken down as say 19K for the van plus 1K warranty. Think I would rather pay 19K and not 20K. When will members realise that they are all paying for warranty work - nothing is for free? Completely fed up paying with my money and wasted leisure time for inferior products. Germany now beckons with some decent products.
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Interesting additions from Dave T and Heethers- have Uk caravan manufacturers adopted simultaneous engineering or Demming inspired approaches one wonders. Do they ever imbed their design/manufacturing staff in distributor workshops or "live" with customers using the products? All basic forward thinking practices even 20 years ago in successful manufacturing enterprises!
PS Does anyone know of openings for a retiree with withdrawal symptoms?
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Yes you are correct,cheap crappie design for cheap manufacture,if they built them like a shoe box when the roof overlaps the sides most water ingress could be stopped,but no they will put the joint in the roof, bailey design is shocking and can only leak evently.
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In response to Jemmydog's last post. Its difficult to know where to start without sounding entirely pessimistic. To the best of my knowledge, none of the UK manufacturers have a certified QM system linked to an accredited body. PDCA is very basic and should be a cornerstone of everyday operations. The concept of supplier control also seems to elude most manufacturers. Nevertheless, our membership seem to believe that problems they experience with manufacturer bought in products is not the responsibility of the caravan manufacturer. Whilst our members are willing to pay for the non-quality in their purchase price, where is the incentive for the UK manufacturers to adopt a QMS embracing Design and Manufacture. Indeed, why would they need anyone to help and advise them in such concepts? Personally, I will be purchasing my next van from an organisation that understands and implements quality. Brexit and exchange rates may add cost initially, but the long term benefits will be worth it for me.
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I don't think we are willing to buy less than the best I think it's really hard to get our heads round how seriously bad the problem is. "It won't happen to me" yet it is increasingly obvious that it happens to a lot of people. I will certainly be considering a non British van next time!
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I have just bought my second (brand new) caravan in 5 years. Bought a Swift. There is definitely very poor standards of quality control as the van is now going back for the second time with a long list of faults, although probably described more at the minor end rather than major such as damp. Really annoying as is a 2 1/2 hour trip and a day sat waiting. I don't dare leave the van with the dealer as things get pillaged out of the van to supply items missing from other new ones (rather than just stealing for the sake) upon previous experience. Although wrong, what they are trying to do is make up for the deficiencies of the manufacturer with vans being supplied with stuff missing, and dealing with warranty claims with Swift is apparently a "nightmare" ! I think that has been evidenced elsewhere on other posts
I think German is prob better...like their cars!
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Dave T. Your decision to buy non British mirrors the choices made by car buyers in the 70s &80's when the Japanese car makers made inroads into the uk market with products reflecting the processes to which you refer. German manufacturers cottoned on as did much of U.K. Engineering but surely the reasons why the caravan manufacturers have not progressed must be more complex than some of the comments here would suggest. Let's volunteer to carry out some benchmarking - or does that sound patronising!
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