How to thrive on a non 240v site!

When I was young all our caravanning was off-grid. We had gas mantles for light, a gas stove and a little car battery to run the 12v portable black and white 10 inch telly that inevitably ran out after 2 days watching the soaps and would be jury-rigged to charge from the car while we were out to the beach.

The water pump was foot operated and that was the sum total of the "luxuries". No shower, no hot water system, no central heating. 

Certainly the 2 weeks holiday was fun and we didn't have all the electronics we have these days, but if you want a long off-grid holiday all you have to do is not use the modern conveniences of your van.

Weight and balance need to be considered if you're adding more lead-acid batteries, they are very heavy and might push you over your load limit if you're not careful. AGM batteries, although more expensive than flooded lead-acid, do tend to last longer being bounced around in a caravan and can cope with a little more abuse than a basic cheap battery.  

Oh, and as for the OT gas situation with fossil fuel use.  Well, we are making "town gas" from sewage using bacteria.  I'm sure we'll be able to make a renewable version of LPG/propane or alternative if we need to.

I have just completed a load/charge test on my LiFePo4 batteries. My compressor fridge would run for about 2 to 3 days on battery alone from the old 200Ah AGM battery bank.

I got a whole week from a single 100Ah LiFePo4 battery, not too bad at all and it wasn't fully discharged either, but based on the wattmeter it was probably around 20% which is about as low as you want to take them for longevity. It's now charging nicely off the solar.

So yes, we're progressing with lighter batteries with more capacity which is very useful if you have your central heating on, and your alarm, and the extraction hood on the cooker etc.

I suppose if you wanted more lead acid batteries you could put them in a storage box and keep them in the car when travelling to keep the van weight down. 

I was watching Andrew Ditton on YouTube.  He has the refillable cylinder in his AirStream and he was commenting that he is seeing more and more of the petrol stations removing LPG from the forecourt.

He's recommending that people get a backup standard Calor cylinder just in case. 

I suppose with more efficient petrol engines the automotive need isn't as much as it once was and it's not economically viable to keep the lpg tanks and pumps. 

As I understand it, the retail price of gas in the ubiquitous 11/12.5kg steel cylinders (propane/butane) used by most households is regulated by the State. The price actually increased to e13.50 in January while we were out there and was reported in the local Press. Prices for other cylinders (such as 'light' versions) don't seem to be regulated. (Shades of Calor Lite!)

The difference in price to LPG at filling stations may be due to VAT/Duty?. (It's rather amusing to think of locals decanting from cylinders INTO their LPG cars!  .... rather like red diesel in the UK.)

By my calculations, and assuming 80% efficiency, heating by gas in Spain works out at around 10p /kWH.   Typically sites charge 30c /kWH for metered electricity, although this option is usually only available if you are staying at least 30 days.

For those that are interested Safefill now have a filling adapter for use at those garages with shields on the pump.Cost is £18.00 including delivery,just ordered mine.

Mike

Merve, i have a pair of 95ah Energy Bulls and, as they are AGM type, i asked a question on MMM (of a regular technical battery expert) regarding the charging regime....my charger has two settings of GEL or LEAD ACID.

the answer was 'neither' but GEL was better (less bad), but for a MHer, this charging regime would also have to charge the vehicle battery which is Lead Acid...so a conflict there...

his comments werent particularly complimentary re Banner Energy Bulls, and their failure rate and possible effect on the charger itself.

however, my own experience is that they do the job i want, allowing is to camp off grid for many days at a time..

ill keep you posted if my opinion changes, but i suggest you try and catch up on a bit on anything you can find on AGM. 

incidently, the 'expert' did have a recommendation....Varta or Bosch wets.

when i change them, perhaps ill go fully wet Varta or similar...

I am going to muddy the waters.  I also have a energy bull AGM battery. I wasn't sure what set my morning star controller on either gel or flooded so I emailed Banner to ask. They emailed back within the hour to tell me set it to flooded, which wasn't the answer I expected. 

Incidentally Merve you may find this concept interesting all the way from the US of A. http://www.roadtrek.com/featured-options/ecotrek/

Hi BB, I'm interested in your comment about Schaudt and Hymer developing a charging profile for AGM.  My Schaudt unit made in 2015 still has the the choice of flooded or Gel.  Despite Hymer fitting an AGM as standard.  They fitted a Varta btw.  I supplied Banner with the charging profile from the solar controller, I was worried about the monthly high voltage charge.  As you say it seems that Agm batteries require a different charging profile, but being cynical I wonder how much of that is marketing talk, on the other hand at close to £200 a time I don't want to destroy one as an experiment  

Maybe you should ask Banner the same question to see if you get the same answer?

PS. BB, your expert advised you to fit Bosch / Varta wet batteries. I thought this was a no no due to the potential of gassing in an unventilated space. 

Boff, some of the AGM 'dialog'

"Hello, First of all you have to take what I am about to tell you with a pinch of Sodium Chloride as I am quite anti-AGM because we have seen so many chargers brought to their knees by them.
Some by Banner AGM batteries less than 9 months old, we rarely see a good Banner more then 2 years old..

You will know that all the big four battery manufacturers state that only a charger optimised for AGM should be used. Not one says the Gel is even a half suitable substitute IF you want full performance and maximum life.

When Hymer/Schaudt/Banner launched a switch from Exide Gel G80's in 2015 to Banner AGM with a big fanfair, all three companies stated that a Gel charge profile was ok.
But behind the scenes Hymer put a lot of pressure on Schaudt to deliver AGM optimised chargers from Solar regulators, auxiliary chargers and full blown EBL's.
They spent hundreds of thousands on R & D all of which was passed on to Hymer who did the deal with Banner before finding out if AGM batteries would survive on Gel based chargers.

Ask yourself why Hymer/Schaudt spent a fortune on special, specific, AGM optimised chargers if Gel was adequate?

Go to any website and they will tell you that AGM are the most fussy Lead acid battery technology over the exact charging profile, or short life, and loss of capacity will occur.
You will also read that 14.7v is essential. Exactly what the big four battery manufacturers also say.

So knowing that AGM are far more intolerant than Wet batteries or Gel and that they need 14.7v 'Boost' charge and 13.5v float charge, how can a fixed 14.4v Alternator ever get the best out of them?

The new 2017 model vans are finally going to get AGM optimised Alternator charging.
It isn't just the mains charges that are wrong for AGM, it was the Solar regulators and Alternators too.
Ever seen an AGM setting on an old Alternator?

Cars with AGM batteries have ECU controlled alternators with multi voltage capability, where is that on your Motorhome?

If AGM batteries were 3 fold better, then this intolerance and fussy charging might be worth it, but while thy are billed as 'superior' to ordinary, old technology, Lead acid batteries, in the real world they lag behind the best of Breed Powerframe Wet technology from Varta and Bosch.

If you look at our 'How a battery works' page you will see evidence from various sources that AGM and Gel batteries are not the Safe/Gas tight batteries you will read on the forums.
Every big battery manufacturer for AGM and Gel has small print that says they don't dry out 'under normal circumstances'.
Quite different to 'never' losing fluid. Did you know that long term Solar charging/mains charging is outside that 'normal use' and will dry out an AGM?

AGM are actually the most dangerous, in our view, having seen many exploded ones.
One of the biggest battery surveys of thousands of batteries, recorded 'Dry out' as the cause of failure for 33% of all VRLA (Gel/AGM) batteries.
See : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/how-does-a-battery-work.php"

as i said, Im just the messenger