Coachbuilt to Van Conversion
I would be interested to know of any experiences of changing from a coachbuilt motorhome to a van conversion. Particularly interested to know what van conversions are like for longer trips away, say between 6 to 10 weeks. I do appreciate that there will be a lot less space but perhaps that's no bad thing!!! Van conversions appear to come in three lengths and I was thinking of the 6.3mts as I think the others could be a bit on the small size although of course handy for getting to places. We hope to go to the NEC next month so will be looking at both smaller coach builts as well as the van conversions. Should perhaps add that we will have a fairly limited budget on top of what our Bailey is worth so any replacement is likely to be around the £45/50,000 price band. Margaret is not yet convinced and part of me suggests just keep on with the Bailey which does suit us but thinking that smaller might be more flexible.
David
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I'll be interested to watch this develop as it's something that we may consider. We hire a van conversion when we visit our daughter in New Zealand and know exactly which layout we'd like. Not sure on the length of the hired ones, but not short, but always been able to park in towns there, but then they have more space even in the towns. Storage of things hasn't been an issue on our 6+ week hire amd you get chairs and table thrown in. Our biggest concern is the weather in this country. We have a windout awning on our coachbuilt and it is used occasionally for shade or rain shelter, we have not had this on hired ones. Generally the weather is warmer in NZ and so we do plenty of outside living, this is the aspect that concerns us most with having one here. As far as I was concerned cleaning was a doddle - sweep the uncarpeted floors and open the backdoors, all gone
. We tend to use ours most of the year, just Nov-Feb we are not generally out and about due to the weather and Christmas.0 -
I have been wondering that too for the dreaded day when I have to downsize, I have even looked at some to get some idea of what would work and what wouldn't. A couple of things I am almost certain I would need is a drive away awning and a lot more relience on site facilities. I don't think there is a lot to be gained in thinking parking in towns would be easier.
peedee
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From our experience with a hired one, the facilities are usable but compact and for a decent shower experience using the site ones is probably best, but certainly acceptable for toilet and handwash. Lack of full length hanging space (for my ballgowns) could be a pain as it is quite short, but didn't actually interfere other than requiring the ironing, on site facilities, of cotton summer dresses which I do like to take abroad. Parking in this country is probably the least reason for purchasing - it's still to high for height barriers and actual parking space length, but maybe slightly more acceptable to park in the street as not as big as a coachbuilt. Not too sure about driveaway awing, getting it lined up again and a large gap between the 'van and awning - it may only be our friends that have this issue
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DK, I can only give you an oblique opinion. We travel and live for up to six weeks in a ten year old Eriba Caravan with internal living space of 4.2 metres x 2.0 metres - probably similar to many panel van conversions. The biggest advantage of down sizing for us was the reduced width - especially on country roads and mountain roads.
i have looked covetously at Murvi Morello panel van conversions - about 5.6 metres overall length, which would give us the same internal living space as the Eriba, but a far higher standard of comfort and equipment. I love their compact, go anywhere style, and would not want anything more cumbersome. I would buy one tomorrow if I had the money!
But we have already bitten the bullet of travel with minimal luggage and kit - no aquaroll etc. That's the big first step.
Good luck with your choosing. Here's a photo of what we have now - but you have seen it before!
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We did it the other way round going from a van conversion to a slightly bigger coachbuilt. We've liked then both, I never felt cramped in the smaller van the only thing is extra doors mean colder areas. Because we travel in the UK at the moment and often head north the coachbuilt has definitely felt warmer. Both vans have been just under 6m and we don't miss anything bigger.
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David, have a look at the Carthago Compactline i138, 6.4m x 2.12m wide, so PVC dimensions, but a real double floored quality A class MH.
nice year old one at Southdowns.....fully loaded, auto 150 bhp....
two full sized doubles....
or something without a fixed bed same length...a lovely used Frankia 640 SD, huge drop down bed (used as double or singles) rear washroom, hreat centre kitchen.....at SMC of Newark.
similar size to a PVC but far better insulation, winterisation, watwr capacities, shower usability etc.....
even used, these might be a little over budget, but ypud be getting something a mile away from a traditional PVC...
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BB
The problem with continental vans for us is the door on the wrong side. I don't particularly have an objection to what side the door is on but where we store the van it is much more convenient for us if the door is on the UK side to allow easy access and everything in the garden is set up for the van to be reversed into its storage space but thanks for the suggestion.
David
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We moved from a 2 berth caravan to a 6.3m Autosleeper. The reduction in storage is a bit of a surprise at first but you do get used to it. We have been away for 3 weeks without problem or having to wash any clothes.
In the winter we take a storage box which travels in the van but lives outside on site.. In there is the toilet fluid, mains lead, silver screens in the winter, bits of wood, folding bucket and all the stuff which used to be in the caravan's gas locker. ( We have no external storage lockers )
In the summer we also take a utility tent.. Chairs small table and BBQ etc easily travel in the van, but on site there is nowhere to put them without the tent.. We have also occasionally have used it as a dining room. We chose the tent rather than drive away awning so as not to have to mess about attaching and detaching it to the van when we go out..and they are a LOT cheaper !
Hope that helps
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David
I am a great fan of my van conversion a Fifer "M" so much so that I have a new one on order and my current one for sale. Its only 5.4 metres long. We have travelled extensively in most European countries including Spain, Denmark Hungary and Croatia and Southern Italy, most trips 8 weeks.
We downsized from a Hymer Van 522 (six metres). The drivability parkability, fuel consumption, performance, rigidity and built quality all justified the change from the comparative fragility of a coach-built. You will be much more relaxed driving the smaller more agile van thus opening up new places such as the outer Hebrides but as you imply that is not the only issue.
To illustrate drivability in 2013 due to illness I drove 1850 miles from the Romanian Border to Scotland in three days.
The lounging and living facilities in our smaller van are much better than the fixed bed Hymer but without a big garage locker you can't carry as much kit. however there is nothing that we need that we don't carry (we hope) and the discipline and planning that is involved in weeding out unnecessary "rubbish" and refining clothing is actually very liberating and has prompted us to do the same thing at home with a massive declutter getting rid of 50% of the furniture and contents in our house.
If you go for the longer van you will lose some of the benefits including possibly lower ferry charges and certain tolls. The 5.4 van can fit within most "normal" car parking spaces.
Bear in mind that any van conversion (despite claims to the contrary) will not be as well insulated as a coach-built. That doesn't mean that for serious cold weather use you cant be comfortable but you will need to be more fussy about silver screens etc and use more fuel heating.
Do your homework very thoroughly and think very carefully what you priorities are because you will be giving up living space. Even the physique mobility and flexibility of the users should be taken into account.
Hope this helps and good luck.
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BVM, what a super looking van. Certainly one we would have looked at if we hadn't needed four seat belts. We have a autocruise accent which is 6m and we use it every day, we don't have a car. We moved up from a Tribute which was 5.6m as we wanted 4 seat belts to accommodate the odd bit of childcare!! When we're away we just use the sofas as a fixed bed and store loads under them and find the dinette just as comfy for lounging. David, lots of research and thought as to what you want. We've always found plenty of room in a pvc for what we need to take on hols.
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Not done it myself but I can give you the experience of good friends of ours who went down this road.
- Driving - PVC every time
- Parking - PVC marginally easier
- Living area - PVC more or less identical to their previous coach built (that was the attraction).
- Great for a quick long weekend away
But:
- No outside storage at all. Nowhere for even the basics of ehu lead and ramps. Everything had to go outside, then come back in again, often damp.
- Using the loo was challenging due to the necessarily tiny compartment.
- Noise of the side loading door was too much for them and most people near them.
- Colder than the coach built
- Unless you're a back packer at heart and like washing clothes a lot whilst you're away you really can't take the gear you want for a decent length trip
After a year they conceded defeat and bought one of the modern coach builts that have a near identical footprint to a pvc but do everything so much better.
As I say, just their experience but I do know a lot of couples who have been down the same path.
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Thanks everyone so far for the excellent information, please keep it coming. Whilst the smallest van does have an appeal I think we would be more incline towards the 6/6.3mts lengths. Given that we have a 7.5mt van at the moment even that would be quite a reduction!!! One thing I have noticed is that some vans have either an underslung gas tank of only room for smaller cylinders, any views on this?
David
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A big factor is how much gas you use. If you nearly always stay on a site with ehu, not really an issue. If however you get through an average amount of gas then there are huge differences.
A single small cylinder (all you get in many pvc's) is without doubt the most expensive and inconvenient way to buy gas. Not least because there's no safe storage for a spare.
An underslung tank is the opposite end of the spectrum. Doesn't take up space from the body and offers the cheapest (and I would argue, easiest) way to get gas in the UK and EU.
The only issue with an underslung tank, (assuming it has been properly and safely located between the chassis rails and axles - beware, some aren't), is corrosion due to a combination of salt and debris.
That said they should have a safe life in average use of least 8 years and possibly up to 10. You can get them inspected and tested at any LPG installer for a small fee.
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Our van is an Autosleeper Warwick XL, 6.3m and has an underfloor tank. It's capacity is 20L, in practice 18L because of the 80% max fill rule... I estimate that this is equivalent roughly to a 9kg Calor if such a thing existed. I could fill our tank for about £10-12 compared to Calor at £25 - 30..
In practice it means you don't worry in the least about using gas for heating, especially at home where I haven't "paid " for the leccy.. I find I fill it up when it gets below half full as the gauge is very pessimistic in nature, and its easier just to top it up when available as you would for your diesel.
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I notice some are saying PVC's to be colder than coachbuilt. The coldest we've been away in was minus 4C, the site water taps were frozen solid. Inside the van it was 21C with ease, and with the tank heaters on, no water problems. I think the Autosleeper website spec quotes ability to cope in muchcolder weather.
Having mentioned water, our van has only a 70L fresh and a 45 L waste tank, so quite small by MH standards and needs a fill and empty everyday.
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David, i also looked very hard at PVCs (just to understand the other end of the size market) and, being a Carthago owner) naturally looked at the Malibu....
by far the most 'coachbuilt' PVC ive looked at....top quality fittings, a bathroom where the toilet swings away under the bed to give unhindered showering...
BUT, they will be fixed bed vans....not everyones choice....
however, great external storage, peoper full sized bed(s) etc....
but, door on the wrong side for you...
however, some Adria twins have the door on the UK side.....
for front lounge vans....IH probably the nicest (but pricy), Murvi right up there too, but a bit 'carpety' inside....and floor not level, making sofa and cab seats a completely different height...
looked at Fifer but i didnt really see the attraction....
first thing to consider is the layout...
front lounge, rear kitchen/washroom = Murvi/IH style
rear lounge (make up bed) = Autocruise, AutoSleepers etc
rear bed (singles, 6.3m, or double, 6m) likely to be Continental (Malibu, Adria, Possl/Globecar)...
good luck.....its another minefield...
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A lot of the newer van conversions now have upgraded insulation and we had very good storage in our Autosleeper van. Some makes don't have the sliding door which is great in the summer but can be a cold spot in the winter. I think you really need to look at the general design and storage and what sort of things you like to take.We travel light, fold up chairs etc only a bike rack as an extra. There are also some very luxurious vans around and different vehicle bases to consider. The NEC wiil probably be quite an eye opener David!
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The Fifer (yes other brands are available
) has diesel heating and a compressor fridge so gas consumption is not an issue and in fact we have used less than than 2 x 3.9 propane in almost 5 years (400 nights) of use. New models have a 15 litre LPG tank as standard so we will be filling it every other year !! However in a more conventional PVC an underslung tank or a refillable may be a better solution. Our new Fifer will have two solar panels and a 240ah battery so being off grid should be easy. Having mentioned water, our van has only a 70L fresh and a 45 L waste tank, so quite small by MH standards and needs a fill and empty everyday.Having mentioned water, our van has only a 70L fresh and a 45 L waste tank, so quite small by MH standards and needs a fill and empty everyday.
You will know from your own experience how much was you use but for the two of us (showering in the site facilities) its about 20ltr per day so PVC capacity would allow up to three days before filling/emptying needed.
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Unless you're a back packer at heart and like washing clothes a lot whilst you're away you really can't take the gear you want for a decent length tripUnless you're a back packer at heart and like washing clothes a lot whilst you're away you really can't take the gear you want for a decent length trip
Again David I note from your blog that you have undertaken some lengthy journeys so you will aready have some idea about clothing needs. . At the risk of sounding like a product endorsement we have never had problems carrying enough clothes in our PVC including having to accommodate climatic changes of sub-zero to 28C on the same trip albeit we carefully choose technical clothing. We use Eagle Creek packing cubes (two each is enough) with hanging space in the wardrobe and waterproofs/overjackets hung in the cab. There is a double sided cube to put clean clothes on one side and dirty on the other and as a rule of thumb we never carry more than two weeks clothing. Washing clothes when you can with an admin day in camp every two weeks or so to wash/plan/relax. We also use Hydrofibre towels which take up less space, dry you better, dry themselves quicker and are better for your skin according to my GP because they don't scour away natural oils. Two large and one small each will cost about £100 but our 2009 investment in these is still being used and they are a good as new and take up very little space.
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of course, a smaller van doesnt have to mean a PVC...
to reduce weight, and still provide the comforts that customers demand yet be truly viable at 3.5t, manufacturers are producing slimmer coachbuilts, with the likes of Carthago, Hymer and Dethleffs to the fore, in Europe, with Elddis and Swift doing something similar here.
one advantage witha coachbuilt of a similar 'footprint' to a PVC is the more vertical sidewalls and the feeling of space this can generate over a sloping sided van.
not only that, its more easy to cut 'holes/hatches' in a coachbuilt and retain body integrity....leading to more designs/layouts available.
making these vans 15cm slimmer, with a body width of 2.12m, against 2.06m of a Ducato based PVC, makes them just as nimble...
edit: ps David, could a continental ban not be driven onto ypur drive meaning the door would be in the same side for loading at home?
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I've been going round the dealers to see what m/home I would consider buying. I must admit that PVC M/H's are looking quite promising. There are many layouts but coming from a caravan there is a fair amount of compromise required to utilize the space.
The last time we had a M/H it was a coach build and we enjoyed it. It had loads of room. But now looking for something smaller.
Work in progress at the moment.
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edit: ps David, could a continental ban not be driven onto your drive meaning the door would be in the same side for loading at home?
More difficult because reversing in I can reverse over a low step and straighten up but of course I can't drive over the same same step. It might work for the smallest PVC but I suspect the larger ones would be an issue.
David
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just to lob in my old hobby horse.....weight...
no doubt everyone will think a PVC will easily run at 3500kg....well...
just picked the AS Kingham as the sort of van a UK customer might go for...6.36m
MIRO of 3067, leaving 433kg of payload....
hang on.....AS includes no water in the tank....at all....70 ltr tank...70kg
...and no passenger included...nominal 75kg
...and no gas included......2x6kg bottles, full roughly 20kg
oh, no 'packs' included, who can resist these 'essentials'...all very heavy but no weights listed...ill guess instead...
Premium Pack: Alloy Wheels, Cab Air Conditioning, Cruise Control, Thule Omnistor Awning, Colour Reversing Camera & Garmin SAT NAV, 80w Solar Panel, AL-KO Air Top Suspension, Leather Steering Wheel & Gear Knob 75kg
Winter Pack: Fresh & Waste Water Tank Heater Blanket, Concertina Cab Blinds in Lieu of Cab Curtains, Truma Combi Heater Upgrade, Wheel Arch Insulation Blankets 15kg
Media Pack: Maxview VuQube II Automatic Satellite System, Twin LNB to support 2 receivers, Fully Automatic Tuning, Receives transmissions from Astra 1, Astra 2, Astra 3 and Hotbird, Compatible with any SD/HD Free to air satellite receivers 20kgFiat 150bhp Comfortmatic Gear box 35kg
thats 310kg of the 433kg payload gone....now down to 123kg....
now were down to caravan levels of payload.....tiny....
all before you actually put any 'stuff' in the van.....
no clothes, crockery, cutlery, pots, pans, kettle (electric and gas), chairs, tables, bbq, levellers, fluids, books, electrical gadgets, pc, phones, bikes, bike rack, tow bar for bike rack, etc, etc....
might be doable but makes you think......well, it should do.....
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BB you are absolutely right to highlight Payload issues and I quote (purely for illustrative purposes and not to masquerade as part of East Neuks' sales team) real world weights per our local weigh bridge for my current Fifer M As you already point out the actual "unladen" weights will depend on base vehicle options AND conversion options. The only reliable way of knowing is a weigh-bridge before purchase.
My Fifer
Unladen unconverted base vehicle per owners handbook
2010 kg.
Unladen (empty) as converted per my particular vehicles spec which is standard apart from awning with a little fuel and two gas cylinders 2660kg
Laden 3080 kg
"Laden" is my test to establish axle weights and margin for food clothes and other personal items. It included driver and passenger (about 135kg). Full fuel tank. Full tank waste water, full tank fresh water, full toilet casette and 25 kg water to simulate other items. two full gas cylinders (3.9kg propane) tools and equipment, crockery and cutlery.
Interestingly with the grey tank full the weight on the front axle was more than rear but in normal use the load on the rear axle would be more but both would be well within specified parameters.
I don't guarantee the above weights or my methodology.
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Following this discussion with interest as I'm also pondering a move from coachbuilt to a small PVC, and the Fifer M, which I knew nothing about, looks very interesting.
BlueVanMan:
Thanks for your notes on weights, as the East Neuk website doesn't give any details apart from GVW, not even overall vehicle dimensions. A couple of questions for you 1) have you had any issues getting insurance for your Fifer, either refusals or loaded premiums? 2) Do they hold their value well and how easy are they to sell used? From a trawl this morning used examples seem as rare as hen's teeth.
Mod edit:-Link added to Fifer
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The Fifer Dimensions are 5.4 metres long for the "M" The width is 2.05 excluding mirrors. I have never been completely sure about the height but I work on 2.7 metres. There has been no difficulty in getting quotes at "normal" rates and the quotes have been on a par with my former van which was a Hymer Van 522.I am currently with Comfort. I am actually selling my van just now (that is not why I am posting enthusiastically) but rather because I have recently ordered a new Fifer M for delivery this Spring. The Van is currently advertised on CC classified and in the February edition of MMM where there are two Fifers (one is an S though). The original costs on the road including an expensive Alarm and other bits and pieces was £42K in Spring 2012. I am hoping to get circa £30K but as always a trade in will be less. I think that compares well with my previous deal on the Hymer.
Production numbers are low and few Ms were built in 2013/14 so few come onto the market. The longevity of the build quality means that people tend to hang onto them. East Neuk themselves normally clear any used stock they take in pretty quickly. The Fifer is a bit of a niche product but it has won the design and drive award for several years. The build quality is superb. No frills or bells and whistles but great a design.
Hope this helps. Darren and Davy are very helpful and approachable if you phone them.
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David
We, like you, changed from a caravan to a motorhome (our first motorhome being a PVC). We bought the PVC (an Adria Twin) to commute between the UK and Italy. It was perfect for our journeys there and back spending 8 or 9 nights in either direction. However, I would not like to spend more than a couple of weeks in the PVC mainly because of the lack of space but also because of the poor insulation afforded by the structure (They're not just colder (when its cold) but also hotter, particularly at night, when its very warm. As a result we moved to a 7.4m Burstner coachbuilt which we find perfect. As to the flexibility of a PVC; I accept that they are slightly more flexible when it comes to parking, although I've never failed to park the coachbuilt, even at a supermarket. They feel more stable at speed but I find fuel consumption is about the same as the coachbuilt, mainly because I tend to drive more sedately in the larger unit. With a suitable fixed awning a PVC may be ok for long stays in mainland Europe but a habitation aircon unit would make it more comfortable. One distinct advantage of the PVC was the increased load capacity which I do miss in the coachbuilt (we no longer have any capacity to bring wine Italian back to the UK!). Good luck with your search.
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weight (payload) is certainly something to be aware of, some fixed bed PVCs have a large storage area under the bed.....for wine?....and the bedding lives.....on the bed.
non fixed bed PVCs may be (comparatively) strapped for storage space and finding a suitable home for bedding might be an issue, as might be making up the bed (in a smaller, more cramped space) if youve been used to a fixed bed.
the compromise between space, drivability will always be a tricky one.
one of the best layout PVCs i saw was an Adria Twin SPX which took the SP 6m rear transverse bed and put the same layout into a 6.36m version. the exrtra space was added into the front lounge and made a great difference.
sadly, no longer made.....mostly the longer versions now put longitudinal singles and retain the smaller lounge...
both Carthago and Hymer make slim coachbuilts using this 'SPX' layout, also giving large garage storage for bikes, without extending the length.
oh, and doable at 3.5t.....
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I have found this thread very interesting to follow. We changed from a caravan to motor home the same year as DK. We have often discussed what we would do in the future.
Would we stay with a coachbuild, change to a PVC or go back to a car and caravan.
I think we can safely say now, we would go back to a caravan. Once our health is such that we can no longer ride our bikes to get around and need to use a car to get out and about. Public transport doesn't always help and the thought of having to always stay in busy towns fills me with dread as I hate noise. Not my idea of a holiday.
We have looked at PVC's but I truly don't think I would like the reduced internal space, I do know that I would hate the sliding door, having had a people carrier with one. We currently have a 6.6m coachbuild IF we wanted to stay with a coachbuild but go smaller I then we could, but not by much, however we could go for something slimmer.
The move back to a car and caravan would, I think for us be the choice, it would give us plenty of room and greater flexibility once on sites, now that we are retired staying put for weeks on end is possible, something we never did for more than 5 days when working and first retired. However things change and we tend to have a much more relaxed attitude to our trips away these days. The only things is I won't tow the caravan but I will drive the motorhome (when I'm allowed)
DK I hope you find the answers you are looking for and that it works out for you.
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