3 Litre Towcars dying out?
I currently use a Mercedes ML300CDI as a tow car and I have to say that it is the best Tow car that I have ever owned, and that includes 4 toyota landcruisers and a 98 Mitsubishi Shogun.
The ML has a beautifully smooth 3 Litre V6 engine, is relatively cheap to run, in respect of MPG and Tyre wear and servicing.
I bought it new in 2011 so its now over 5 years old and has done 62,000 miles. I would have changed it some time ago but the good old 3 Litre engine seems to be rapidly becoming a thing of the past!
Yes I know, - the current breed of 2 and 2.1 litre 4 cylinder engines offer similar power outputs, but they dont have the same low down lazy torque that I love.
I am also concerned that these current more highly stressed 4 cylinder engines won't be as reliable in later life as a very low stressed big V6.
Am I alone in this? I do worry that the lack of bigger engines will soon start to make the owning of bigger and heavier vans more difficult. Mine is a heavy van but single axle. I bet the owners of big twin axle vans are finding a similar problem.
TF
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Could not agree more just changed my 3.0 v6 cdti vectra for a 2.2 4cyl antara identical power output(184bhp) but the torques is the big difference 450nm at 1800 rpm for the V6 and 400 at 2000rpm for the 4 cyl however the Antara is more economical, so bit
of swings and roundabouts. but as the old saying goes no substitute fo cubic inches0 -
World we live in sadly, it's all about emissions emissions emissions and while there is nothing that says a 3.0 is going to be much worse than a 2.2 over all, 3.0 scares people, 2.2 does not scare people. With a 3.0 People think "Gas guzzler" even though
as we know it's not justified!
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Agreed, But the Gas Guzzler title is long out of date. My ML Blue efficiency averages 34 -35 solo and tows a heavy 1550 KG van at 23 - 24Mpg. It also does about 40,000 to a set of tyres. The only trouble with that is that is that they all wear so equally
that I need a set of 4 when I change not 2 now and 2 later!All in all its been really good. But dropped from the range now and replaced by a 2.1 litre 4. Not for me. Will keep the old one. I guess it will have to see me out.
TF
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I read this interesting article last week regarding the latest allegedly Eco vehicles.
"Scientists have found electric, hybrid and other supposedly eco-friendly cars produce as much toxic particulate pollution as the “deadly diesels” they are meant to be replacing.
The tiny particles are produced by tyre and brake wear. This happens in all cars, including diesel and petrol, but eco-vehicles produce more because they are heavier, owing to the batteries and other parts needed to propel them. The extra emissions are roughly
equal to the particulates saved by reduced engine use.The added weight of eco-cars means that when they accelerate or slow down, the tyres and brakes wear faster, producing more particulates".
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Everything is all about emissions, but nobody seems to think about how much shorter lifespans these small engined cars have? Just think Peugeot 1.9 diesel against the 1.6 hDi, we regularly saw 1.9 diesels with 250000 miles you don't see many 1.6's with that
sort of mileage, someone ought to think about the emissions making these replaceable vehicles, audi's 1.9 diesel was fantastic on fuel but not emission friendly enough, we still run a 1.9 diesel 98 caddy and it pulls fantastically! I'm not sure if we bought
a new 1.6 we'd still be running it in 18 years!0 -
It was really only in the last few years of the previous century that the motor manufactures really embraced the concept of Planned Obselesence. Don't make cars that will last for ever as you can then get better sales in a few years time when your customers
have to buy a new one.0 -
I have to agree with you Tigerfish the ML is a great towcar I run a 320 cdi which is effortless pulling 1800kg. You could always have a new GLS 350 same 3 litre v6 the only drawback being the £70,000 price tag ( plus options of course)
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I have a Discovery 3, 07 year 2.7 V6 had for a few years and tow heavy twin axles average 20-23 mpg towing (normaly cruise between 60- 70 mph on French motorways) can get 34 solo if stick to 60mph,Best engine ever had so smooth loads of power and torque,
smooth and quiet on the road .Discos this age can be bought reasonably now for about £10000-£12000 and most faults should now be corrected.I love it and now no other car for me.0 -
Everything is all about emissions, but nobody seems to think about how much shorter lifespans these small engined cars have? Just think Peugeot 1.9 diesel against the 1.6 hDi, we regularly saw 1.9 diesels with 250000 miles you don't see many 1.6's with that
sort of mileage, someone ought to think about the emissions making these replaceable vehicles, audi's 1.9 diesel was fantastic on fuel but not emission friendly enough, we still run a 1.9 diesel 98 caddy and it pulls fantastically! I'm not sure if we bought
a new 1.6 we'd still be running it in 18 years!I don't think they want cars to run for 15 years anymore, going 250,000 miles. They want them scrapped and replaced with more efficient examples long before that.
There's logic in that, I have to say.
Cars are the most recycled product there is, its something insane like 98% full recycled. So its not a hugely wasteful process.
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TF l agree with you my 3.2 Shogun is an 07 plate bought 8 years ago when Gordon Brown screwed us all, at the moment l am due to change it later this year torn between the A year old Shogun or the new Outlander GX4. Suposedly the tax is due to change but
l don't trust any goverment to be fair with road tax, l am currently paying £520 Road Tax, not sure the big 3.2 litre cars will come down to the £180 minium proposed so looks like l will need to look sierously at the outlander0 -
Heethers, Personally I like the Shogun, and if I could afford to buy a new or 1 year old one today, thats what I would buy. The outlander is OK too but not enough umph for me.
Don't go for the new hybrid version its towing performance is not acceptable, it was simply not designed with towing in mind.
That s the problem with the new breed of engines. They have all quite naturally been designed with economy and the environment at the top of the design parameters and the needs of the Caravan fraternity come very low down in the list of priorities.
I really do fear that unless the Caravan Industry and the two main Caravan Clubs speak out, the days of the larger van, certainly the big twin axle vans will be numbered, as the required big tow cars fade out.
The Shogun, The Landcruiser, The Range Rover etc are all still powered by old technology. In my opinion they are great, - but how much longer will they be allowed in the urban envireonment? The bigger more capable Hybrid must soon become available but our needs come very far down the scale of commercial essentials.
The Technology is there. You only have to look at the new buses now coming into service. From an envireonmental acceptability viewpoint, they are light years ahead of what was available only a few years ago. So if it can be done to the really big machines it should be possible for the big 4x4. BUT once again the numbers game comes into play. If you add up all the big 4x4 vehicles sales and compare them with the small/medium family car sales, we come a long way down the priority list.
Still look on the bright side, my big beautiful one owner immaculate & fully serviced Merc was recently valued at £14,000. Needless to say no deal was done as its worth much more to me. It will see me out! But perhaps it might even rise in value as good tuggers get rarer!
TF
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TF- I thought you had decided to leave CT, so it is really good to see you back again
(especially as we share a similar background).
Totally agree with you - I have a VW Touareg 3 litre V6 which tows my Barcelona with absolute ease and is probably the best tow car I have owned - and I say that having also had 4 Discos in the past. Getting nearly 40 mpg solo on the motorway and 24 towing,
I don't regard it as a gas guzzler by any means and with the addition of the Adblu tank on this model, have no qualms about unnecessary polution. As you say, it's the big engines that score on low down 'grunt' and it would be a sorry day if we had to lose
that.0 -
We had a 3.2 Shogun - one of the best tugs we ever had but MPG was only 16-18 towing and about 10 more than that when solo. A price we were prepared to pay for a good tug. (Bear in mind that the Westcountry roads never lend themselves to great MPG.) Our roadtax on the 2011 model was around £240 as Mitsi had reduced the emission level by then. The new rates of tax coming next year won't affect cars already on the road.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vehicle-excise-duty/vehicle-excise-duty
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TW, That's good to hear. Do you think that there is any possibility that the older cars like mine (2011), will be allowed a reduced rate? They are really suffering now and their value dropping heavily.
It could be argued that if you can afford £500 a year excise licence then you can afford a new one! We all know that that is not true but it will result in some lovely cars getting sent to the breakers long before they should. But perhaps that is the whole
intention. Bah!TF
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I know no more than is on the Govt website, TF.
Anyone contemplating buying a new car needs to weigh up the road tax and first year's tax this year versus the new rates from next April.
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The only issue is what a chancellor is going to do a few years down the line to balance his books.
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I don't think the bare basics of the newer, smaller capacity engines will be an issue covering half a million miles, it's everything that's bolted to them that's the issue, and more so the cost of servicing/replacing these parts! That's where they get you
to replace your cars early when your 10 year old car needs a £1000 service and other bits n bobs.
I do believe strongly that car reliability, best running costs and quality peaked in the mid 90's and carried on though to the mid '00's and now it's very hit n miss again.0 -
I feel the underlying issue is the optimised family car is not designed to lung something close to its own weight around.
The correct striving to make cars as efficient and as environmentally tolerable as possible inevitably leads to designing all parts to just do the job required, not to be over designed to haul twice what they are required to do.
This leads me to run a vehicle that's design brief is for something more rugged that a domestic road car.
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Some really interesting stuff in those posts..do I want or need a larger more powerful vehicle to tow my Caravan?. My current vehicle is the Ford S-Max,with 150BHP,and a kerbweight of 1820 Kg.It pulls my 1395 Mptlm caravan reasonably well [reversing i need
to "nurse" the clutch tho].I keep looking at "larger" cars.Mitsubushi,Rexton..cant afford the "classier ones"do I.? Currently get mid 40s mpg on trips around..about 27mpg towing..yet..still hanker for a bigger beast...0 -
There's still some great 3 litre engines around, my S type has a V6 twin turbo diesel with DPF which brings the emissions down, in fact only £295 tax for the year, Jaguar up graded this to 3 litre around 2011 still with the DPF and they put it in to the
Range Rover as well, as for miles to the gallon I did 1850 miles in france last year towing a 24 foot Senator and achieved 27 mpg over all..0 -
We tow a twin axel with a 3.2 litre 158hp Mitrubishi shogun that we have owned for ten years, it's clocked up 84.000 miles and will do 20 mpg towing, and mid 20's solo, it's our second shogun and we will never sell this one. I have always been a big cam
man when towing.0 -
In reply to the original post, it sounds to me that he has got a first class tow car. I am assuming it is a Common Rail Turbo Diesel. At only 62,000 miles, (hardly run in, in my opinion!) as long as it is serviced regularly, oil and filters - and fuel filters
- changed, and try to steer clear of Supermarket diesel, there is no reason that it should not do another 150,000 miles. Those engines are quality engines, and should carry on for years.0 -
Once you have towed with a decent sized 3-0 litre vehicle it is difficult to live without its all reasuring performance. The current trend for new models dropping from 2-0 ltr to 1.6 litre such as Xtrail, Honda CRV etc highlights the lack of performance when towing (according to posts elsewhere). It is not as if the mpg is improved in real life driving. For example our previous second car not used for towing was a 2-0 ltr 5 speed Toyota Verso which average 5 mpg more than its new replacement 6 speed 1.6 Ford C Max (both diesel). The latter is a decent car but lacks any pulling power in 6th and its fuel economy is worse than the previous old technology in daily use.
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We have two tow cars, a 2.8 Jeep Wrangler, and. 4.0 Jeep Wrangler! Towing a little thirteen foot caravan. Hardly know it is there! Wheeeeee!
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