Hopefully an error re caravan length

ocsid
ocsid Forum Participant Posts: 1,395
1000 Comments
edited March 2016 in Caravans #1

This Gov sites seems to have a serious error, or a large number of us are towing illegally;

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-towing-weight-and-width-limits

To quote:

"Width and length
The maximum trailer width for any towing vehicle is 2.55 metres.

The maximum length for a trailer towed by a vehicle weighing up to 3,500kg is 7 metres. This includes the A-frame."

The Caravan Club's handbook Technical information page 654 quotes:

"Overall body length not exceeding 7 mts, excluding drawbar and coupling".

Can our club take this up with them please as a matter of urgency?

 

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Comments

  • EmilysDad
    EmilysDad Forum Participant Posts: 8,973
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    edited March 2016 #2

    That's me illegal then ....... by almost 2" Laughing

  • cyberyacht
    cyberyacht Forum Participant Posts: 10,218
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    edited March 2016 #3

    That's a quite a lot of bigger vans then. It is not unknown for there to be errors, even on Govt. website pages.

  • SteveL
    SteveL Club Member Posts: 12,311 ✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #4

    That's me illegal then ....... by almost 2" Laughing

    we're illegal by 34 cm, or 13 inches in old money.

  • Whittakerr
    Whittakerr Club Member Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #5

    Well, the leaflet for my caravan say Overall length 7.51m. Dont know if that includes the A frame or not! Surprised

    It says internal length at bed box height 5.83m but that dosent help much.

  • ocsid
    ocsid Forum Participant Posts: 1,395
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    edited March 2016 #6

    Well, the leaflet for my caravan say Overall length 7.51m. Dont know if that includes the A frame or not! Surprised

    It says internal length at bed box height 5.83m but that dosent help much.

    Well, "overall length" actually says it all it is the "A" frame and the hitch and really should be the rear grab handles if they pretrude beyond the rear.

    IMO the Gov website has an error, shoddy working by somebody and their bosses.

  • Dave
    Dave Forum Participant Posts: 141
    First Comment
    edited March 2016 #7

    Ocsid, I've forwarded this by email to the Club's technical department. Given that it is Easter week it might not be read until next week so I'm not expecting a fast reply.

    Dave

  • KellyHenderson
    KellyHenderson Forum Participant Posts: 76
    edited March 2016 #8

    On the case, a member called Technical yesterday and I am waiting for a response from the SMMT. As far as the Club are concerned the information on the .Gov website is wrong. 

    I did leave a feedback message on the website page stating they have missed "it does NOT include the A-frame". 

    I will post again when I get further information.

  • Metheven
    Metheven Club Member Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #9

    The 'Gov' website has been like it for at least 5 years, Practical Caravan was discussing it <HERE> in 2011

    It takes a while for them to catch up Laughing

  • KellyHenderson
    KellyHenderson Forum Participant Posts: 76
    edited March 2016 #10

    The 'Gov' website has been like it for at least 5 years, Practical Caravan was discussing it <HERE> in 2011

    Hopefully I can get this changed once and for all. 

  • ocsid
    ocsid Forum Participant Posts: 1,395
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    edited March 2016 #11

    On the case, a member called Technical yesterday and I am waiting for a response from the SMMT. As far as the Club are concerned the information on the .Gov website is wrong. 

    I did leave a feedback message on the website page stating they have missed "it does NOT include the A-frame". 

    I will post again when I get further information.

    Thanks Kelly & Dave; I did the same and left a note of the error on the link in their web site. Hopefully others will and they will do something a bit more quickly to ease the aggro of endless notifications.

  • Metheven
    Metheven Club Member Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #12

    Not for the first time, but this thread has prompted me to leave a 'note' in feedback on their website.

  • KellyHenderson
    KellyHenderson Forum Participant Posts: 76
    edited March 2016 #13

    Just sent an email to the NTTA too. I will get this sorted somehow Happy

  • Metheven
    Metheven Club Member Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #14

    Just sent an email to the NTTA too. I will get this sorted somehow Happy

    Nice one 'Kelly', I have only my wife behind me, you have the CC Laughing

  • KellyHenderson
    KellyHenderson Forum Participant Posts: 76
    edited March 2016 #15

    And the NCC makes 3. 

    I think the Caravan Industry is going to get tired of me Happy

  • KellyHenderson
    KellyHenderson Forum Participant Posts: 76
    edited March 2016 #16

    I can confirm that a request has been made to amend the advice given on the Gov.UK website regarding the inclusion of the coupling/A-frame.

     

  • TheAdmiral
    TheAdmiral Forum Participant Posts: 506
    edited March 2016 #17

    Good thread Ocsid

    Admiral

  • Wildwood
    Wildwood Club Member Posts: 3,585 ✭
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    edited March 2016 #18

    It must have caused some confusion for people so great to see something being done about it as on the face of it our caravan is illegal and it is by no means the longest out there.

  • Lutz
    Lutz Forum Participant Posts: 1,564 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016 #19

    As far as I can ascertain, the definition of trailer length is covered by The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use ) Regulations 1986, which state in Part 1.3 (Interpretation) that the following is excluded from the definition of overall length:

    (ii) for the purposes of regulation 7—
    (a) any part of a trailer (not being in the case of an agricultural trailed appliance a drawbar or other thing with which it is equipped for the purpose of being towed) designed primarily for use as a means of attaching it to another vehicle and any fitting designed for use in connection with any such part;

    In a roundabout sort of way I would imterpret that to mean the drawbar.

     

  • commeyras
    commeyras Club Member Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #20

    Lutz, your English is better than most of ours is!  What a convoluted way of saying 'includes towbar except.....'.   Like many, I seem to be towing an illegal length caravan.

  • commeyras
    commeyras Club Member Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #21

    I have just had a look at the NTTA web site and it says that a towcar up to 3500kgs can tow a trailer up to 7m
    excluding the coupling and towbar.  Parkers guide agrees with this.  Could be an interesting case if a jobsworth tries to prosecute me for my 0.15m illegality (suppose I could lean on hook to push in drawbar whilst it is being measured!!Wink

  • dwlgll20
    dwlgll20 Forum Participant Posts: 139
    edited March 2016 #22

    I hope this helps.

    Simply put the maximum length of the trailer (caravan) is 7 metres. But this 7 metres DOES NOT include "any part of the trailer...designed primarily for use as a means of attaching it to another vehicle and any fitting designed for use in connection with
    any such part"

    I've put the links in below to the appropriate legislation.

    Regulation 7(1) of the Road Traffic Regulations 1986 says clearly in item 9 of the table that the maximum length of 'any other trailer not being a agricultural trailed appliance or a semi trailer' is 7 metres. But it doesn't help in working out how to measure
    the length.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/7/made



    To work out what is not included when measuring the length of a trailer reference needs to be made to the Statutory Instrument 1078 of 1986 which provides interpretation of the above regulations. Some way into the interpretation on page 9 is the explanation
    of the meaning of overall length within the above regulations. It then gives a list of what is exempt in the overall length. It's very easy to miss the last word before the list which is 'except'. There is a long list of exemptions. There is specific mention
    of the above regulation 7 and it clearly states that the overall length of a trailer does not include "any part of the trailer...designed primarily for use as a means of attaching it to another vehicle and any fitting designed for use in connection with any
    such part"

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/made/data.pdf

  • commeyras
    commeyras Club Member Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #23

    The Gov UK site says the 7 mtr "includes the A Frame".  All too complex for me!  Off to tip towing my small trailer.

  • dwlgll20
    dwlgll20 Forum Participant Posts: 139
    edited March 2016 #24

    I agree that that this is confusing. But the actual legislation is the one I am following not the text on a government information website. Rather than being passive I have contacted my local MP to see what she can do!

  • Wildwood
    Wildwood Club Member Posts: 3,585 ✭
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    edited March 2016 #25

    As far as I can ascertain, the definition of trailer length is covered by The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use ) Regulations 1986, which state in Part 1.3 (Interpretation) that the following is excluded from the definition of overall length:

    (ii) for the purposes of regulation 7—

    (a) any part of a trailer (not being in the case of an agricultural trailed appliance a drawbar or other thing with which it is equipped for the purpose of being towed) designed primarily for use as a means of attaching it to another vehicle and any fitting
    designed for use in connection with any such part;

    In a roundabout sort of way I would imterpret that to mean the drawbar.

     

    It would be nice if they could use plain English.

  • KellyHenderson
    KellyHenderson Forum Participant Posts: 76
    edited March 2016 #26

    I have now heard back from all 3 Caravan Industry bodies;

    SMMT - Society of Motor Manufacturers Trade

    NTTA - National Trailer & Towing Association

    NCC - National Caravan Council

    They have all sent a request to the DfT to amend the Gov.UK paragraph to state that 'This does
    NOT include the A-frame/Coupling'

    I will keep an eye on the Gov.UK website over the next couple of weeks as it may not be a quick thing to change.

  • SteveL
    SteveL Club Member Posts: 12,311 ✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #27

    How does the length thing work with 5th wheelers do you think, where often the body is over the hitch. Does it count then. Even without it a lot look well over 7 metres.

  • KellyHenderson
    KellyHenderson Forum Participant Posts: 76
    edited March 2016 #28

    How does the length thing work with 5th wheelers do you think, where often the body is over the hitch. Does it count then. Even without it a lot look well over 7 metres.

    Because 5th Wheelers fall into the 'Articulated' towing category, I dont think the same rules apply (when the rules are right of course ;-) )

  • Metheven
    Metheven Club Member Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #29

    Thanks for the feedback Kelly.

  • SteveL
    SteveL Club Member Posts: 12,311 ✭✭✭
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    edited March 2016 #30

    How does the length thing work with 5th wheelers do you think, where often the body is over the hitch. Does it count then. Even without it a lot look well over 7 metres.

    Because 5th Wheelers fall into the 'Articulated' towing category, I dont think the same rules apply (when the rules are right of course ;-) )

    thanks Kelly 

  • JohnDH
    JohnDH Forum Participant Posts: 183
    100 Comments
    edited March 2016 #31

    Just had this reply back from Stefan at Gov.uk:

    "Stefan Nicolaou (GOV.UK)

    Mar 31, 16:33

    Dear John

    Thank you for your email and feedback about the Towing with car page on
    GOV.UK.

    We'll check with the Driving and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) to make sure the information is accurate or needs improvement.

    If you have any specific questions to ask about towing with your car you can direct them to the DVLA at

    https://www.gov.uk/contact-the-dvla

    All the best

    Stefan

    GOV.UK Content team"

    Dont know about you guys, but I dont think they will be interested at DVLA.


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