Electric vehicles change the future of caravanning
If the government continues with their plan to stop the sales of Diesel and Petrol cars it has the potential to greatly effect the caravanning community and the industry. Anyone who travels more then a few miles to their preferred site will be justified in thinking that caravanning is coming to an end. Where are there any charging points for Cars pulling caravans and how many times would you need to charge on a 400 mile journey? It is difficult enough to find a place to park in the peak times at many service stations let alone be able to charge your car. I wonder if the Club is aware of the potential effect this could have on the number of caravans in future. Many are made in the UK so this could have a big detrimental effect on this industry. Has the club made the government aware of this? Do we need to find a decent Diesel vehicle that will last us out till our caravanning days are over?
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There are several threads relating to this issue @Chippy57. In particular, you may find the comments by @ChocolateTrees of interest.
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@Chippy57 The ban on ICE cars is only for new vehicles from 2030, still five years to go to buy a suitable diesel if that is what you want. The only problem might be is that as we get nearer the deadline the choice of possible diesel tow cars could be limited?
I wonder if we are being a bit pessimistic on the impact on caravanning? You mentioned a journey of 400 miles and I just wonder how many people actually tow that far in one day? In 40 odd years we may have done that three or four times and always in Europe. Even when we used to tow to Austria or Italy it was pretty unusual to tow more than 250 miles in a day. In charging terms that would equate to a top up charge en route. It is no hardship to make a half hour stop for a coffee or bite to eat and from now on perhaps to charge the car. Many of the things you ask, will in time, become a reality. Here in the UK most of our journeys were between 100 to 130 miles so probably no need to make a charging stop. I think if people want to make EV towing a success they will especially if they retain a degree of flexibility. The trouble is there is not much publicly expressed experience out there for people to make a judgement. We have our own Chocolate Trees and his excellent posts on this forum and Andrew Ditton's excellent YouTube Channel but I have not seen much else. I think what we need to get rid of is this strange antipathy towards EV's not only for towing but for general motoring. There is far too much out there on social media against EV's with opinions based on feelings rather than facts. All a bit Post Truth to my mind!
David
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Unless you pay a lot of money (and I mean a lot!) EV cars are just simply boring. Merely a method of getting from A-B without much character, and easy to lose in a big car park. We will cling on to our 50 plus year old MGB (will tow a small caravan) and our Jeep Wrangler (will tow anything!) for as long as possible, then take our holidays in a different way. Might go electric when all we need is a shopping trolley and something to park up at hospital!
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There are several EV on the market capable of towing 130 miles, we normally tow 178 miles down to the New Forest in Hampshire, if we changed to EV would have to split the towing journey for us Cirencester 95 miles then the New Forest. However we would have to go of site to recharge.
Don't expect any encouragement from the CMC, the CMC site EV chargers run by independent contractors cost just over £6.00 for a 10 kWh charge slots, so if you require 11 kWh it 2 x £6.00 = £12, some sites have 7 kWh and other 22 kWh, I can understand why they are always empty, it is cheaper and more convenient to use public chargers.
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I do agree that with the ban not until 2030 if it actually happens there is plenty of time to et a new diesel if you want to although the choice is shrinking quite a bit. If EV's could manage 200 miles towing I would accept that and by 2030 who knows.
Possibly the biggest problem with diesels is the rapid drop in sales, which might mean many service stations could give up selling this, making it more difficult to find and the scarcity could put up prices.
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I think the depends on your definition of "boring" and what your definition of "a lot of money" is. We have a fiat 500e convertible, which you can pick up brand new now for about 23K and it is anything but boring. It's like driving a rolerskate and has character all of its own. My Polestar2? Again - I certainly dont consider it boring, but in a very different way to the Fiat. Are there boring cars out there? Absolutely yes, but IMHO thats not down to the drive train, it's just the ethos of the car. There are LOTS of very boring ICE cars out there too.
I was watching a range test video last night on some of the new cars on the market. Granted, to Takethedogalong's point, these are expensive new cars, but probably not much more than a brand new Jeep Wrangler (about 51K to 57K new). The Polestar 4 (spoiler alert) comfortably won the range test with over 333 miles on one charge and 90% of its claimed range. I am pretty confident I could tow 160 to 170 miles with a bit of contingency with that car on a single charge. You can get one band new on auto trader for a shade under 60K, so not disimilar to the Wrangler in price. And in terms of solo drive quality (where I spend 90% of my time), for me thats a no brainer. (I hired a Wrangler for a day in Hawaii. It was the 1st and last time I will drive one).
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@ChocolateTrees I don’t disagree with anything you have said, and yes there are boring cars no matter how they are propelled😁 We know our MG as “the roller skate”. It’s more the actual body shapes, colours, interiors that I find rather bland to be honest, wouldn’t doubt the performance. In fairness, I might just be misled by all the rather boring adverts which all just seem to be for the same shape SUVs.
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I cannot see there is anything wrong with people expressing their emotions and personal beliefs about electric cars, especially where it is based on real life personal experience – such as in the numerous YouTube videos that I have seen. They are not making it up. You see things as they occur. Because it is their personal experience does not invalidate their opinion or deny the fact that their experience has been negative. If you want to call this post-truth, then so be it, but, for me, it does not make the information from government, or promoters of EVs, that we are constantly bombarded with, any more compelling. This is not to mention the misleading propaganda from some manufacturers about range and so-called zero-impact on the climate.
The fact is I have very little knowledge of motor vehicles, whether they be driven by an ICE or by an electric motor, but I have serious misgivings about EVs. I know what I like and what interests me, and I know what I need when I travel. The bottom line for me is (a) that their credentials for countering climate change is, as yet, dubious, though promise more and (b) that I might yet consider an electric car, if I could afford one, if I could drive, say, to Aberdeen, as I sometimes do, without having to constantly worry about where there will be a charging centre, will the machines work, will there be one free, how long will it take and how much will it cost. These undoubted practicalities are the showstopper for me without even starting to imagine how much these problems are magnified if I wanted to tow – even if I could afford a car that is capable of it. People may try to pretend it is otherwise, but all the evidence says different.
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"People may try to pretend it is otherwise, but all the evidence says different."
I don’t think people pretend @Graydjames but their experiences are as they state - their own real life personal experience. You only need to read the posts on here by, for example, @ChocolateTrees to see it certainly works for some.
Incidentally, it is possible to check the location, price and availability of charging points whilst en route.
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@Grayjames
It does depend which YouTube videos you watch? There seems to have been a whole industry of anti EV videos appear on that channel. It is up to you what you believe but I would suggest that some of those channels need to be taken with a pinch of salt?
The UK changing to EV's won't make much impact on Global Warming in the scheme of things. But what they do bring to the table is cleaner atmosphere which benefits everyone. For many, after the initial outlay, it will mean cheaper motoring. I would imagine that EV's make far better tow cars as you have access to immediate torque from the motors. The concern is range. That will improve as time goes by but towing a caravan will always have a major impact on range. So even if in future EV range doubled to somewhere between 500/600 miles the towing range is still likely only to be half that. Trips away will just require extra planning.
David
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My nephew is on his second Tesla but does not tow with it. It is used for business and long trips to family and with the technology on board can see where it is best to charge. The range is one that means he has to stop about the same time as he needs to for a rest and the car is no problem for his use. He will admit to its limitations and that it is really not up to towing a caravan in the real world.
Mt neighbour has an EV with a towbar but uses it for short distance work with a small trailer which it works well with. Basically unless you are very patient or driving only short distances I feel they are not for caravans yet but who knows what will come.
I am not convinced by the alleged green credentials given the precious metals and other things needed for making them. The best I have seen from makers is that they do not reach the environmental level of equivalent ICE's until at over 30,000 miles and most are well over that so is not showing a big improvement in real life. I suspect they have missed out the extra weight meaning more road damage, new tyres, brake replacements and similar extra wear and tear increasing the 30,000 miles to even more.
It does look like political correctness is possibly more the driving force than fact.
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Yes, Ionity, Tesla, FastNed, Gridserve and Osprey are installing locations that have dedicated spaces for charging.
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Perhaps "pretend" was a bit unfair, but are the apologists for EVs really giving their genuine real life expereince? What I see, with absolute clarity, is that some people interpret their experience very differently to how I would. It puts me in mind of those people who go on holiday and tell everyone what wonderful weather they had when the truth was, when you ask others, that the weather was very mixed indeed; but there were a few sunny days so we can call that as being great weather. We've all met them. People look at things through their own rose-tinted spectacles; they see positives and not negatives and they spin things according to this prejudiced perspective. Of course, you can argue this about those who point out the problems as well, but I have yet to see any evidence, in social media, in the legacy media, and least of all in comments in this place, that proves to me how easy it all is in an EV and, even, as claimed in a recent BMW advert that I saw, that driving an EV is actually easier - logistically - than an ICE vehicle.
Some people simply are unfazed by waiting half an hour to charge up their car, instead of five minutes to refill a tank with fuel. Nor do they mind finding somewhere to charge the car, perhaps using an app or some dedicated map or other, rather than simply driving along and stopping at the next fuel station that they see. These people might even be sanguine if they find a charging point that isn't working or that works out to have a cost that is more than petrol. For myself, I would find all of this unbelieveably stressful, especially if I was on a long journey. I sometimes travel between Leicester and Aberdeen in one day and I do not believe I could begin to think of the same trip, in one day, in an EV. That's my point. There's simply no way that it would as uncomplicated or as unchallenging than when driving an ICE vehicle.If EVs are really to take over, this has to change and quickly. Until it does, EVs are not for me.
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“If EVs are really to take over, this has to change and quickly. Until it does, EVs are not for me.”
That’s fine, each to their own but I’ve no reason to doubt the word of those who say they are happy with their EVs.
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I think in reality EV's only work for those who only tow short distances. Once you are looking at 200 miles or more which I think most of us do, you will need to stop twice, unhitch, possibly queue for a charger and hen et back to the caravan and hitch again. This will probably add well over an extra hour to your trip and the cost of the charge will be more than if you used an ICE vehicle. On top of that the charge time quoted for your car will usually be for an 80% charge which given the limited range you get might mean even more stops or long or ones and a full charge is not supposed to be good for the batteries.
I am sorry but I see no way an EV would suit me, a hybrid could work though.
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@GraydJames
I think your view is perfectly valid. One persons planing is another persons constraint, one persons short stop, is another persons long wait. But there are some myths that need dispelling. For example, the ability to drive long distance in one day. If you mean solo - it adds a mere 40 mins to the journey (see the clip from abetterrouteplanner.com)
BTW -generating this plan took 10 seconds. The time it took to type Aberdeen and Leicester.
I also include a second tool that shows all the chargers on that route, letting you know where you might stop.
@Wildwood
Another myth that needs dispelling is "dont charge to 100%". This is simply not a thing. The 20% to 80% charge time is usually quoted because the charge above 80% is slower. You will note in the drive plan below, the maximum charging percentage is just 68%. The reason for this is to maximise charging speed, minimising time, but with sufficient range to reach the next planned location.
I should also add, a 200 mile day would be just one stop for us, with a single charge. Leave home at 100%, the first leg would be between 120 and 130 miles, and a 30 min stop would easily get us sufficient range to cover the remaining 70 or 80 with a bit left to find dinner at the other end if needed. Even pre-EV, that would have been a journey with a stop. It may not have been at that point (2 to 2.5 hours in) but it would have been inevitable for using the loo. Now we just plan it in with plenty of leeway and at a location where we can charge too.
Would the cost be more than if we used an ICE car - well that depend on the charger price of course, but given 90% of my mileage is solo, and 90% of that is from home, the huge saving I make from home charging can easily cover the occasions when I spend more charging on the road (by some significant margin).
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I assume that when @Graydjames is talking about Leicester and Aberdeen he is meaning solo not towing? I don't think many would want to tow that far in a day? If he does mean solo then its a journey of about 450 miles. An EV with a decent battery could surely achieve that with just one stop en route, perhaps two at most. Perhaps I don't have a cast iron constitution but I would certainly need to stop more than twice on the journey😯 I would most certainly want something to eat and drink on that journey so I can't really see where the real inconvenience is? Plugging into an EV charging point is a lot cleaner (literally) than some messy diesel forecourt pump and usually the EV charging points are usually much nearer the facilities.
David
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Not an EV vehicle, but back in the early 2000’s, we regularly towed a 350–400 mile journey with an LPG vehicle. Our back up petrol tank allowed us a 20 mile tow if we ran out of Gas, but that was all. We planned each journey, and identified where we could top up with LPG, and if it was a route we used a lot, then there wasn’t much stress to be honest. That said, we usually enjoyed our journeys and didn’t stick to monotonous motorways for the full journeys. The only stress came if we found our chosen LPG refill either empty, or out of use. (This was towing a caravan) We did have to go on the hunt across country a few times, but I doubt this would be the case with EV charging points nowadays, despite our personal view that should the uptake of EV vehicles soar, there simply won’t be enough enroute charging points for everyone without a wait. We shall probably opt for a small EV runaround at some point, just for local use.
Can I ask Chocolate Trees, I know Teslas have their own charging points, but do the other models use a more standard charge point, or are there different ones depending upon model?
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I am aware of the ease of finding where charging points are. My nephew has a Tesla and that can tell him where they are and if they are available. He can do the 300 mile journey from his home in London to his mothers in Teesside with one stop which he times with a stop for a coffee and if needed food. For normal use an EV is perfectly viable, but that stop costs most people dear as they pay way over the odds for the electricity. Provided you can charge at home and do not do large mileages on a regular basis they do work.
I am afraid for most of us wanting to tow though, electric cars do not work. I appreciate some people can mange for shorter trips, but the problems of charging on the road are simply too great for me apart from the additional purchase costs of an EV.
For those who cannot charge a home, the costs become a problem and you really have to be willing to pay for your principles to drive one. The government could help by reducing the 20% VAT on charging points to level out running costs, but there is no sign of this. Given the charge was imposed by both the last and current governments, it is not a political point, but common sense.
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In Europe - or indeed outside of North America - Tesla have adopted the standard Type 2 and Type2 CCS charging plug. The Tesla charging locations (V3 and V4) use that standard, the same the same standard as every new rapid charger in Europe. So in theory pretty much every EV made for Europe that support DC charging can use both a Tesla location and all other DC rapid chargers. Conversely, every new Tesla (since about 2019 and including all Model 3 and Model Y) can use both Tesla and pubic charger.
Indeed - Tesla are slowly opening up their network to allow non-Teslas to charge at their rapid locations. The V4 Tesla charger supports contactless payments. The V3 charger you can access via an app.
The only cars (with DC charging) that don't support this CCS standard (that I am aware of) are the Nissan Leaf, the Lexus UX400 and the Mistsubishi Outlander PHEV. Everything else has a standard Type2 CCS plug and all chargers have a type2 CCS Socket.
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Yes, certainly I meant solo - not towing. I've never towed - only ever had motorhomes. And, I was talking about doing the trip by car. I knew someone would say that, on a journey of that length, you have to stop anyway. That is, of course, true. If I do the trip in one day, I stop twice and usually for a good while - long enough to charge up. But that's not an answer to the inconvenience of EVs as far as I am concerned and won't be until, just as you can almost always guarantee being able to get fuel at wherever you decide to stop, so you can charge up. Only a week ago, I stopped at Chieveley services on my way to Hampshire. It was about 4 o-clock. There is large bank of charging points at Cheievely - I did not count them, but it looked to be around 20 or so. They were all occupied. So how do you deal with that? Wait and hope you are next in the queue. Is there a queue? How does it work? Is there a rush for the next one to come free? Meanwhile I have to wait outside rather than get started on my coffee. Moreover, I want to stop where I choose. Is there a Costa is usually my first issue and is it at a convenient point on my journey. I do not want to have to add to these criteria whether there are going to be charging points and whether or not there is a free one. I do not want to plan in advance whether or not I am going to be able to charge my batteries.
In a sense this is the difference bewteen a positive outlook on EVs which you plainly have and a negative outlook which I have. I most certainly feel no need whatsoever to apologise for my negative view. For me it will just be way too stressful to consider an EV at this stage. As things stand, and I accept this may change, EVs are just too inconvenient, especially on long journeys.
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@Chocolate Trees
I much appreciate your opening words in your post. One man's planning is another man's contraint sums it up very well. In a sense that's all I am saying. I just cannot cope with that added level of stress. Moreover, I would have to add that the rest of your detailed post sums up exactly where the problem lies for me. Being sepcific, I would find your plan irritating. Teebay is always a nightmare - I tried stopping there on my last trip to Aberdeen and I left immediately as there was no where to park. Of course, assuming there is one free, parking is not an issue if you are charging. But I want to stop where it is convenient not where there is a charging point. Criaglinn requires leaving the motorway. It might not be far, I get that, but it is another inconvenience I want to avoid. The only time I can ever recall leaving the morotway to get fuel was at junction 42 of the M6 - there is a Shell garage on the roundabout at J42. Also, how can you be sure there will a charging point free or that they will all work? I do not want to have to go through that planning procdeure no mater how little time it takes.
Anyway, enough said, you made my point for me really in your opening words. I just won't be doing EVs given the existing provisions.
Finally, a genuine question: Is it really true that "never charge to 100%" is "not a thing"? That's always been another negative for me. Purely psychologically, I could never get my head around that. When I refuel, I gain some kind of positive satisfaction from having a full tank. If I come way from a refuelling point only 80% full, I regard that as a negative. This is how I am built; so I always saw it as another drawback. They say the same about mobile phones. But I always charge mine up fully. With EV batteries - hugely expensive to replace (another negative) - I've always assumed it was a rule I had to stick to. If it isn't then that is, at least, one negative removed.
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@Graydjames
The 100% charging thing really is not a problem. I had a decent length trip yesterday and charged the car to 100% over night before hand. The issues is with leaving a car fully charged (or fully empty) for long periods of time (as in many days or weeks). The recommendation from most manufacturers is to only charge to say 80% or 90% for normal daily use, but of course to fully charge to 100% if you need the range. Just don't do it a week before you need it and leave it there. There are lots of people who do regular long journeys in their EVs and charge to 100% every night with no issue at all.
When out and about, the reasons not to charge to 100% is not for battery preservation but for time. EV batteries will follow a charging curve - that is the maximum speed of charging will change depending how full the battery is. Maximum charge rates are normally achieved between about 10% and about 60%, then slowing down a bit to 80% or 90% where it will really tail off. The curve for my car looks something like this. At the low end of the curve, I am charging at something close to 400 miles of range per hour (150kW). The drops to 200 miles of range per hour at 55% (75kW), and stays there to 80%. At 80% it drops off again to about 30kW. This is only about 80 to 90 miles of range per hour, and at 87% its down to perhaps 17kW or 30 miles per hour. From 80% to 100% it's going to take nearly as long as it did from 10% to 80%. But that 10% to 80% represents about 150 or so miles of range, or 3 hours driving. I know I will probably need a break before the next 3 hours is up, especially as I have possibly already had 3 to 4 hours behind the wheel, so I just head to the next stop. Indeed - I would possibly just give myself an extra 2 hours range (taking just 20 to 25 mins or so) and head off.
How do we know the chargers are working and available? The car navigation tells me, in real time. I stopped on my way back from Portsmouth yesterday, just south of Newbury. the car told me there where 4 Ionity (one in use) and 8 Shell chargers (one out of order) at the Highclere services. It told me that when I get in a set off from Portsmouth, and kept me informed of the status on screen as I traveled. In my car, if I see its full, or nearly empty, I can touch one button and get a list of alternates to pick from, each with live data.
Granted - not all cars do that, but it takes all the pain out of that potential problem and just makes it easy. The nav also tells me what is at that charger and how far I have to walk to get to it (e.g. costa, Starbucks supermarket, etc).
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@Graydjames From what you say you seem not to be ready for the change over to an EV. You have got to want to do it, otherwise as you suggest the experience could be stressful? I have no idea how old you are but if you are more senior in years the need to change to an EV may never happen as there will still be a good supply of ICE or Hybrid vehicles around for at least the next 10 years and probably beyond. My current car is only 18 months old so not really thinking about a replacement yet but probably somewhere between 3 and 5 years old I will start to think and I will certainly look to see what is available to me, be it EV, PHEV or another HEV.
David
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