I'm confused about towing limits
It's been suggested that you can tow a caravan with a MTPLM which exceeds the Gross Train Weight of the vehicle provided you don't load the caravan beyond the Gross Train Weight.
I understood that insurance companies, (and the police), consider that towing a caravan with a MTPLM that exceeds the vehicle towing limit was illegal irrespective of how it's loaded.
www.gov.uk states "The gross train weight is the weight of the fully-loaded car plus fully-loaded trailer and must not be exceeded." I interpret that as saying that if the fully loaded car plus a fully loaded trailer is more than the gross train weight then it's illegal even if either vehicle is not fully loaded at he time of the accident or being checked by the police.
In other words is it legal for the MTPLM to exceed the Gross Train Weight providing the van is only loaded partially loaded?
I would welcome a definitive answer on this!! Cheers !!
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I suspect that there is confusion over the definitions of weights here. It is absolutely correct that gross train weight for your outfit must not be exceeded.
The in-service train weight is the total of the actual weight of your car plus the actual weight of your caravan while you are driving on the road. The in-service train weight must never exceed the gross train weight quoted for your car.
The MTPLM is a weight quoted by the caravan manufacturer and also must not be exceeded. Responsible organisations like the Caravan & Motorhome Club and reputable caravan dealers will advise caravan purchasers to ensure that the MTPLM of the caravan is kept below below about 85% of their car’s quoted kerb weight. This is not a legal requirement but is advised in the interests of safety and avoidance of snaking.
So you CAN tow a caravan whose MTPLM exceeds the kerb weight of your car with the proviso that you don’t exceed the car manufacturer’s towing limit but it is not advised. However, the combined weight of your loaded car and caravan must NOT exceed the Maximum Gross Weight and nor must the weight of your caravan exceed the MTPLM.
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It is the plated weights that matter. If the two plated weights (loaded) are greater than the GTW of the towing vehicle, it is illegal even if the actual weights are less than the GTW.
Your second and third paras are correct, Geoff.
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Just checked on the gov.uk website and it states:
“The gross train weight is the weight of the fully-loaded car plus fully-loaded trailer and must not be exceeded.”
I guess fully-loaded means when the actual weight is equal to the plated weight, so thanks for that correction Tinwheeler.
👍
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The statement on the gov.uk website is a trifle misleading. The gross train weight is not the sum of the GVW of the car and the MTPLM of the caravan as it would suggest. The reason why this is not so is that the GVW of the car includes the noseweight of the caravan, but so does the MTPLM of the caravan. This would mean that one is counting noseweight twice. More correctly, the train weight is the sum of all actual axle loads.
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Tinwheeler, you've got things wrong there. What you should have said is:
"If the actual weight of the combination as one unit is greater than the GTW it is illegal even though the sum of the plated weight limits of car and caravan respectively may be greater."
One should add that none of the axle load limits may be exceeded, either, nor may the actual weights of the car and caravan exceed their respective GVW or MTPLM.
There no connection between the towing limit of the car and the MTPLM of the caravan. The towing limit is in comparison to the actual towed load. The MTPLM is an absolute maximum and could be a lot higher.
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Just to add an example to make things clearer.
A car has, say, a GVW of 2000kg, a GTW of 3500kg and a towload limit of 1500kg. It may legally tow a trailer with an MTPLM of 2000kg so long as the actual axle load of that trailer doesn't exceed 1500kg.
However, such a combination would require a Category B+E driving licence because for driving licence purposes, the two plated limits are added and that sum (4000kg) would exceed the 3500kg limit for a Category B licence.
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I’m not convinced that is right Lutz. My original understanding was the same as your argument but since reading the gov.uk website I think we are wrong and Tinwheeler is right.
That website says the legal gross train weight limit is calculated from the weights that would be effective if both car and trailer were fully loaded. The fact that they aren’t fully loaded in your example is surely irrelevant as far as GTW is concerned.
Maybe this argument will continue .....😀
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All I can say is that it's no wonder confusion abounds. 😟
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I wonder what the OP can conclude from all this? He started confused and is probably in worse state of confusion now. 😂😂😂😂
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Government websites are known for their inaccuracies. Obviously whoever publishes them doesn't always check against the actual wording of legislation.
Fact is that the actual train weight is the sum of all actual axle loads. That's how train weight is defined. Of course, the actual train weight must not exceed the plated gross train weight limit. That gross train weight limit isn't calculated at all. It is determined by test and set by the vehicle manufacturer.
The total weight of the car is the sum of its actual axle loads and that sum must not exceed the GVW. If the caravan is hitched to the car its noseweight is treated as part of the car's overall weight.
The total weight of the caravan is its axle load plus the noseweight and that sum must not exceed the plated MTPLM.
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I am going to try and give the OP some information to help him decide if his outfit is legal and complies with CAMC advice. I just hope I’ve got this right but I’m sure Lutz and Tinwheeler will let me know if I’m wrong. 😀
I will use the mathematical operator <= to mean ‘less than or equal to”.
1. Inspect the identification label on your car (usually at the bottom of a door frame or maybe under the bonnet.)
2. The 4th line of the label will state the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and the 5th line will state the Gross Train Weight (GTW) both measured in Kgs.
3. Inspect the weight plate on your caravan which will state the MTPLM in Kgs.
4. Make sure that GVW + MTPLM <= GTW. That’s the legal bit.
5. Inspect your vehicle handbook and determine the Kerb Weight (KW) of your vehicle and Towing Limit (TL) (both in Kgs)
6. If you want to stick strictly to CAMC advice then make sure that MTPLM <= 0.85 x KW. Alternatively, you could effectively keep to the 85% towing limit by restricting what you load in the caravan so that the actual weight of the caravan when ready for towing AW <= 0.85 x KW.
7. If you are prepared to exceed CAMC advice (not recommended) then at least ensure that AW <= TL.
8. The only other legal bit is to always ensure that AW <= MTPLM.
I hope that helps among all this confusion.
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Crystal, GB👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
(In my opinion)
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Thanks for your input on this Tinwheeler. I like your opinion.
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😀😎
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GeordieBiker has got everything right except Items 4 and 6 in his reply.
GVW + MTPLM is not equal to the Gross Train Weight because both the GVW and the MTPLM include the noseweight, so by adding the two together, you'd be counting the noseweight twice.
Furthermore, if the trailer is not fully loaded to its MTPLM the sum of the two actual loads could be less than the gross train weight limit, which would be perfectly legal. So long as that condition is fulfilled, the sum of the plated GVW of the car and the MTPLM of the trailer can be well in excess of the plated gross train weight.
By convention, weight ratios are always based on the MTPLM of the caravan, not its actual weight.
One must also not forget that none of the axle load limits must be exceeded.
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This is a reply from vosa regarding the same query which might clarify things.
Karen I refer to your mail of 20 June to VOSA Enquiries on the above subject which has been passed to me to answer.There is no technical problem with the gross vehicle weight of the trailer exceeding a car's towing capability providing its actual weight does not exceed the towing capability, or if the car also has a stated train weight on its manufacturers plate and the weight of the car, trailer and load does not exceed that train weight . It is entirely normal for vehicles totow trailers which have a GVW exceeding the towing or GTW capability. Most HGV artic combinations are like this. I hope this answers your question adequately. Steve Whitehart Heavy Vehicle Process Manager Testing and Support Services Customer Service CentreVOSA Swansea
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I would say that as long as the car and caravan outfit are within the cars gross train weight. Regardless of either vehicles maximum gross weight and provided that neither the car or caravan are overloaded, then you are legal. You will not have overloaded the car or caravan and not exceeded the cars gross train weight.
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In response to Lutz conversation regarding driving licences, these are based on plated weights on a vehicle not actual weights. Ie if the car has a GVW of 2000kg and the caravan has a plated MTPLM of 1499 this is less than 3500 kg so fine to drive on cat B. The other part of weight or mass is actual weight/ mass ie the readings given at a weighbridge., where there are two types of bridge, static and dynamic. If you put the car and caravan on a static weighbridge the reading must be equal to or less than the gross train weight figure on the car vin plate. A dynamic weighbridge is one you drive the three axles over the small plate one axle at a time and the weighbridge will calculate the weight or total mass of the car and caravan . FYI you are verbally warned at running up to 5% overweight. over 10% you be prohibited from driving off until you get the weight down to the legal limit, you could also be fined. The weight mass you don’t want to be is over 25% this will get you points on your licence for driving a vehicle in a dangerous condition. You will go to court potentially and be obviously prohibited from leaving the weighbridge.Towing limits may come into play if you are involved in a serious collision when the authorities may prosecute for a towing vehicle not suitable for the purpose it had just been doing.
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