General Ebike discussion
Ive just opened this as there seem to be much ebike interest since being mentioned in one of the Coronavirus threads.
post your thoughts, comment, questions here and hopefully some experienced ebikers can help.
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Thank you for starting this thread😊
I'll start the ball rolling then:
After doing a quick Google it seems there are (as with most things) vast differences in price. Halford have hybrid ebikes from £479 and then there are some from other suppliers for about £2700!
My questions are:
1. What is the difference between a hybrid ebike and an ebike (if any)?
2. What does the extra money spent buy you?I
I think I would use one primarily as a means to cycle to and from work (about a 14 mile round trip) and am quite happy pedalling most of the route on my mountain bike. However, there are are few very steep areas that would be too much to do as a work commute twice every day and this is why I've started looking into ebikes.
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OH and I both have Bosch crank drive ebikes, hers is a Scott and mine is a Gepida.
as mentioned earlier, we use them in lieu of the car when at home, even 'shopping' with four panniers can be a 25 mile trip.
they are our primary transport when touring (home or away) and they are always with us in the MH garage.
battery technology is constantly moving on but my 6 yr old 'always used' 400wh battery still gives 60-65 miles on Eco. when new it was arounf 80 i seem to recall.
OH similar system, 400wh battery gives 100 miles on Eco and seems more efficient than my system.
bosch batteries come in 300/400/500 wh (watt hour) capacities and range increases or allows for higher power more often...as in off roading.
some Kalkhoff bikes have 17ah batteries (612wh) and can give 205km (nearly 130 ml) range.
thats a bit of basic stuff, other 'topics' to discuss might be cost, styles, weight, how to recharge if not on ehu etc....
edit: the bells.....i posted this before your question, this is not intended to answer it, just a sort of intro....ill come back to ypur thoughts later, if i may.
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just to be sure of what you had found, i looked at the Halfords 'hybrid' bikes and they are bikes that mix styles (eg touring, racing, off road) not technologies like battery....
as far as i could see they are all non electric.
having said that, Orbea make an 'ebike lite' which is a light framed racer/tourer with rigid forks (save weight) and a 'half' capacity battery and small light weight rear hub drive.
the premise is to keep the bike as light as possible and replicate 'real bike' riding, but to add the minimum tech that will add just enough power to overcome (say) headwinds or smaller inclines.
for serious stuff it will be out of the saddle as per normal bikes....
they have some at our local dealer and i may try one after CV.
remember, assistance is limited upto 25kph/15.5mph...and one thing i will say about some ebikes (and mine is like this) cycling with slight assistance at 14mph is fine, but due to the weight of the motor/battery/heavy frame/forks/locks/panniers etc, riding beyond that at 16/17 mph can be blooming hard work...
the idea of the Orbea is that there is no 'drag' from the motor and, being relatively light, it can be ridden as an ordinary bike right upto higher speeds.
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Hybrid bikes, whether ebike or not, are simply a hybrid or halfway between a road bike and a mountain bike. Depending on manufacturer and model it could be more towards one or the other. There are certainly hybrid ebikes.
They will generally have more comfortable geometry, the handle bars higher up but will have the same components. They can be used on roads as well as some mild trails.
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If cost is not the primary concern, then consider carefully what terrain you will be riding w.r.t. crank or wheel drive.
I know a few people have been caught out not understanding the fundamentals of the two systems.The crank drive applies assistive power (as the name implies) to the crank, so that power is applied through whatever gear you have selected at the rear wheel.
Wheel drives obviously only apply assistance at the wheel.
This makes a significant difference if you intend to say cover off-road or steep hills, where the wheel drive torque can be lacking, but with crank drive, that torque can be applied much better via the lowest gearing.
IMO, Crank drives are worth the extra money to give you that more consistent assistance.
....And...'apparently'....certainly for most of the big name crank drives, you can get devices to overcome the UK speed limiting feature!
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I have been looking on Halfords website at a "Carrera Subway womens electric hybrid bike" for £1099.
If I wanted to cycle most of the way to work on the relative flat and get that extra boost for a couple of steep banks (eg quayside to Monument) would this type of thing be suitable?
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Yes it will probably do fine.
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Agree with all of that. My wife has a hub drive motor and I have a crank one and there is a difference. Both do a great job but mine feels more natural and more responsive. Also as the weight is in the middle it is better balanced.
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yes, i support most of the above....
a crank drive bike give the most 'realistic' feel and has good balance.
likea a lot of things, one size doesnt always suit all so heres a couple of other points to consider..
if you 'arent a cyclist' a move to an ebike will be a revelation, but they are generally heavier than ordinary bikes, so be aware...
if you 'are a cyclist' and the thought of going to the 'dark side' is holding ypu back, have a look at the Orbea bikes i mentioned earlier, their 'just enough' concept keeps weight, asssistance to a minimum, retainin a 'real' bike feel for enthusiasts.
cost....the thorny issue....good ebikes arent cheap and IMO you get what you pay for...cheap bikes use cheap components and these will let you down...thin cabling, built to a price elements...
having spent a few years buying/servicing/selliing electric golf trollies as a hobby after retiring, i understand the difference in 'quality' between the market leader at £500 and imports at £250. on lasts a lifetime and the other a season or two.
im not saying it will be exactly the same with ebikes but the cost has to be saved somewhere.
however, there is a way to get a fab top line ebike for cheap chinese bike money......buy used!
like a lot of high ticket items there are folk who can easily afford them and just must have the latest....(golf clubs is a classic example)...so 1,2,3 year old top bikes (and golf clubs) come up for sale at the usual places...
like a car...id rather have (say) a two year old Audi A1 than a new Peugeot 107/8 (no offence to 107 owners...)
a new Bosch bike will be between £1700 and £2700 ish...
a chinese bike (MH show....?) will be £500-£700.
a good used Bosch driven bike will be £700-£1200.
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We have two Merida Ebikes, both crank driven. disc brakes, lightweight alluminium frame, incorporated wheel lock and uprated 600w batteries as an option. Motor is a 'Shimano Steps' with computer on handlebar for the usual speed, distance, battery condition, estimated mileage left in any of the three modes selected, plus more.
The three modes are 'Eco', 'Normal' and 'High' and an 'Off' mode, and with a fully charged battery would give 110 miles, 80 miles and 45 miles.
Advantage of a crank motor is the addition of a torque sensor continuously measuring your input to the pedals, thus giving power when you need it flawlessly. This cannot be done with the hub motors with any degree of accuracy.
Our bikes are classed as road/light off road so ideal for towpaths, gravel tracks, forest trails etc.
We have not as yet found a hill that has beaten us yet but I'm sure there must be a few somewhere, our bikes are Shimano 9 speed with front suspension along with suspension seat posts, thats a real boon when on some bumpy tracks.
If possible go for the crank motor first, rear hub second and lastly front hub.
We went for practicality rather than the fancy mountain bikes, such as comfort and step through etc along with what we thought our usage would be both here in the UK and mainland Europe.
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Good thread BB.
Choice of type of e-bike is huge, and I would suggest doing some good research and try outs before committing what might be quite a sum of money. You can get some in the £500 area, likewise, top end will be £8000 plus. All depends on what you need, what you are comfortable riding, and of course the kind of budget/finance you want to commit.
The kind of terrain you want to use it for will be one consideration, road, MTB, or a bit of both. Will you take it away in van/MH, as overall weight is a factor. Insurance can be a factor as well, as they are a tea leaf magnet.
Most folks have pointed out the obvious differences in type, road bike or not, (different riding positions), hub drive or crank (crank much better). The battery packs and wiring are an area worth looking at carefully for reliability and tidiness, batteries aren’t cheap to replace, and you want wiring neatly put together and not at risk of snagging or becoming an irritant.
Don’t just focus on the electric bits though. You want a comfortable riding position, a slick, positive gear change (you won’t be using electrics all the time perhaps?), good brakes, a decent seat is an absolute must, as are quality bar grips. Both of the latter can be bought separately if you need to change them. Basically, make sure you get a decent bike underpinning the electric bit!🤔 If it’s for work commuting, consider how to carry a bag or luggage, you might need to, even if it’s just a change of clothes.
They are great fun, and not having to slog up big hills under your own steam means that some seriously challenging hills can be tackled. We live in very hilly bit of Yorkshire (a bit they used for TdeF) and it was a real slog to go out from home for me, but not with the e-bike!
Don't forget a bell. Works with most folks, a loud cough shifts the phone zombies😂
Prices: the bike retail world is very much about “the next model” You might be able to find an absolute bargain, merely because it’s a “2019” model. Bike shops have limited storage, so often have get rid sales on to make way for new stock. Wherever you purchase from, make sure they know how to build a bike up for you, so that it is set up perfectly. Just moving the seat back or forward, as well as up and down can make a huge difference👍
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Many thanks I think I'm possibly similar to your wife, in that I have often not realized what I wanted until I bought something I didn't want!
I'm determined to spend time (which luckily there is plenty of at the minute ) researching this subject and reading everyone's posts.
Whilst my current requirements are just for a work commute I can see that in the future it may become something I want to use for more leisure type activities and it may make sense to purchase something that offers more oomph!
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I would endorse ADs recommendation for Cube. I have a Cube bike, not bought as an e-bike, but it was quite simply the best bike for me, well made, slick excellent gear change, it just “felt right”.
Its an e-bike now though. Rather than spend a lot of money, OH fitted a kit to mine, and it gets me up the hills easily. It’s just so right for me.
OH is seriously into cycling, he has a bike for every occasion or terrain. I had a go on one of his normal bikes a couple of weeks ago, and it was like switching from a comfy go all day cob to a Derby winner. I was astonished by the difference. Just so slick to use. His road e-bike, (following a heart attack) is a Cannondale. He tried all different models out before choosing. A good cycle shop will let you take one out before committing. And bargain with them, a lot come with male saddles😱, if that isn’t what you need, get stuck in and bargain!
Big thing to consider.....see if you can buy through the Cycle to Work scheme, get your workplace on board if they aren’t already. It can save you a substantive amount.
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Don't forget that there a couple of offers in Members Offers, if those bikes appeal.
There was a place in the Peak District on the Monsal Trail that let you hire one so I am wondering whether there is anything your way to allow you to do that just to get a feel for it.
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Not sure if you are NHS staff bells, but they are into Cycle to Work scheme in a big way. Bit about it here. Not sure what limit is now, but certainly way over £1000, and you can get cycling wear on it as well.
https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buyers-guides/cycle-to-work-scheme-everything-you-need-to-know/
This might not be far away, comes highly rated! https://www.edinburghbicycle.com/info/shop/newcastle/
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Our first tryout on an Ebike was at Grafham water whilst staying at the site, we hired from 'Rutland hire' and road around the dam to get some idea into what we were about to buy.
I was well impressed, especially when we attempted the dam embankment end where we cycled from the bottom trail to the top albeit at an angle, but the pedaling ease(ish) sold me the idea into getting one.
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Plenty of reviews out there, just type in your bike's name into youtube and/or google.
Then comes the fun part in the rest of the stuff you' want to buy. If you want to carry stuff then a bike rack is a good idea (and doubles as a mudguard) I can say that the Topeak quick release system is good, you bag slides and locks into place on the rack. Also think about your locks? is there a secure place at work?
Post edit, you know anyone who worked for Halfords? as you'll get 25% staff discount if you do.
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If anyone thinks ebikes are for 'eldery' types then look at:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Txz5nUDD14vCdNSU_JydQ/featured
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not sure of the current regs but a year ago, we got £1000 towards OH Scott ebike, via our son.
just another word about weight...ebikes can be pretty heavy (for some) as they come...heavy drive motor, heavy battery...OH and I have very heavy locks, too, and when the panniers are full of shopping, the rear end (her battery is in a rear rack) can be mightily weighty....just be wary.
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I managed to buy a pair of Carrera Cross City folders second-hand, although hardly used. Had them for three years now and whilst not heavily used they have served us well. Rear hub driven with the battery concealed in the frame spine and a range of about 30 miles. Sufficient for our pottering about and fit in our low level MH garage. I see they are currently priced at just over £1K which is slightly more than I paid for both.
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I was a very keen cyclist when younger and almost all non school time was on the bike. Over the years family took precedence and more recently a prolapsed disc meant that it was not the fun it used to be.
Last year while on holiday in France had a go on my friends, relatively cheap and very heavy, ebike and was amazed at the experience.
I started to look at the options, and did visit Halfords with a friend who has a Cube ebike, and decided that a visit to a proper bike shop was the way to go-a place where most staff are cyclists.
I did expect to be looked on as an old, unfit guy who needed electric power to help him but found that all the, very cool hip looking staff, ride ebikes.
The info they gave was very very detailed and useful but what struck me was that they made clear that any notion that having an ebike was not 'proper cycling' was wrong and in simple terms they rode further and had more fun by using an ebike.
I try to do my cycling off road where possible and have to great venues nearby so was looking for a mountain bike.
I fell for a Specialised Turbo Levo, having a quick try on that and a Cube, which has a Swiss made Brose motor. The only problem was the price so I went away to think about it and was still thinking when our friends were down and we visited a new cafe opposite the bike shop.
As we left I just nipped in to discover the bike was going to be reduced in the Black friday sale so decided to go for it. The very poor weather and other commitments kept me off it till the new year but since then have been trying to get out as much as I can and it is getting quite a bit of use now.
So far as prices are concerned, and I can only speak for my bike, there are few secondhand available and those I did see where more expensive than my new one.
I have no idea what bike stores are available to you but found Certini both knowledgeable and helpful.
My bike was priced , on offer, at £1700 when I first saw it and I paid £1575 in the sale.
The bike does not come with a digital display, which many do, but you download the app which records all your activity, lets you tune the motor and even lets you control the motor to ensure you get home before you run out of battery which is something I have not needed yet!
I also like the fact that the phone is tucked safely in my bag.
My grandson uses my old Voodoo Bizango when we go out, I usually let him ride the Levo for a few miles, and jumping on the Bizango makes me appreciate the assistance on the Levo.
The one downside, apart from the initial price, is the weight and even with the battery removed Its a bit of a lump compared to my Bizango. This means that when towing, remember those days?, I will need to put it in, rather than on, the car however to do this its a front wheel and handlebars off job but a small price for the fun that the bike gives.
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Quick stop in a sunny, but quite cool, Padstow last week whist doing the Camel Trail fro Bodmin.
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as CY mentions, for many of us these bikes become part of our touring experience so carrying them away from home in our MH/caravans is a consideration.
there are many ways to do this, car boot, inside a caravan, rear racks for cars or MH or, like us just wheel them into the garage. i have an internal Fiamma rack with floor rails and clamps from the rear wall, so the bike is solidly clamped in place.....its also always out of sight and protected from elements which is a real bonus.
thinking about ebikes when away touring, i did mention earlier that consideration needs to be given if/when touring without EHU (not everyone, i know) as most mains ebike chargers are pretty sensitive things although ours seem quite comfortable via relatively inexpensive quasi sine wave inverter...
the thing to remember is that, due to ramping up from 12v to 240v, youll be taking 20ah out of your MH batteries for every 1 ah you put into the bike....even with 200ah aboard, that makes life very tricky with two ebikes!
although they seem to be withdrawn (dont know why) Bosch produced a 12v-36v 'travel charger' which 'only' requires 3ah from the van to place each ah into the bike.
so, an 11ah (400wh) battery half discharged needs (say) 6ah...thats 18ah from the van......2bikes at that level is 36ah.
200ah of batteries aboard really means 100ah usable....so 36 from 100 should be ok....
but a solar system will be required to put this back into the van daily, if possible.
a 100w panel generates around 6a in good sun....say 4 amp in mid daylight conditions....9 hours of daylight 'should' see this loss returned.
so, you can see how hard it is without the travel charger.
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We've had ebikes for around 12 years now. First pair were pretty basic but boy were they great to have when I had a lower back issue. It meant that I could cycle without getting the pain.
We used these bikes for around 4 years but then changed to folding bikes that were new technology, unfortunately they were cheap bikes £500 each and the chrome fittings soon started to show rust etc. (you gets what you pay for) don't get me wrong they were great bikes for going on the rear of the MH and we cycled thousands of miles on them all over France/Spain.
We then decided 3 years ago, that we needed something that gave us a greater range between battery charges as the bikes were our primary transport when away with the MH. We bought 2 full sized bikes from 50 cycles (Beat bikes) £1800 each, they are crank driven with Bosch motors, we get over 100 mls in Eco no problem. The thing with these bikes is that should you want to, you can ride them easily with no battery power. Something we could not do with the other 2 hub driven types.
I would describe the difference between them as, hub types were very very easy to use, as in little to no resistance when cycling. The crank driven bikes you ride as a normal bike but it feels as if you are getting a push. You can make it as easy or as hard as you want, not something you can do with the hub type.
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Any bike is a magnet for thieves, we had two stolen from our garage a few years ago. (Damage to garage was substantial as well, someone knew what we had in there😡) So, we have up to date photos of all our bikes now, and we have learned to keep all receipts for extras we buy, such as saddles, computers, cleat pedals, racks etc...... Because we had all the receipts, it was a very easy insurance claim, and they were happy to replace all the extras as well, which totted up to quite an additional sum.
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You can make it as easy or as hard as you want, not something you can do with the hub type.
Disagree with your last sentance TG. It may well be easier with a crank driven ebike and no power but I have a rear hub driven ebike from >ASbikes< and you can adjust the power level from nothing to full power in four levels and even ride driven by battery only.The latter mode is illegal in some countries but you can disable it quite easily if so inclined.
AS bikes are quite heavy to ride without any power but that is to be expected with a relatively inexpensive bike. Think I have had it about 4 years and I have never used it for more than a 12/16 mile round trip even though it will do much more. For me, that and nipping into town is quite adequate.
One advantage of rear wheel drive is pleanty of grip.
peedee
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as TG mentions upthread, Beat bikes are tremendous bikes and huge value for money....if you can find one..
the large chain '50 cycles' use to sell many, many Kalkhoff bikes but they 'changed direction' for whatever reason...
however, the Beat bikes were made for them by Derby Cycles (perent of Kalkoff and Raleigh, i think) and are top bikes without the 'expense' of the Kalkhoff brand.
i saw plenty in Bristol when recceing for OH bike.
50 cycles seem to have disappeared....a couple of their shops we knew have closed.
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Two of OHs bikes. Genesis is a hybrid, bought as a normal bike, but kit fitted for health reasons. Pictured on an all day ride out in Cader Idris area, so well up to some steep climbing. It is front hub driven, mainly because kits are a pig to fit on rear wheel with complex gearing. It did the job for a year, while OH was still recovering, but is back to being a normal bike now.
Bike two is his (current🙄) pride and joy. Cannondale, hub driven. Superb to ride.
The three main loves in his life are me, the dog, and his Cannondale. Only one is insured.........😂
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