Food for Thought
We have a very British Motorhome - Autosleeper Broadway with parallel bench seats. Today we spent a long time looking at small Hymer motorhomes at the NEC (although still bigger than the Broadway). Now, anybody who spends most of their motorhoming time on the continent knows that continental MH’s have raised fixed beds, big garages, tiny kitchens and small living area because the lounge is the outdoors (as one of the Hymer reps. said to us today). British MH’s assume bad weather so have a bigger indoor living area. That’s my take on it anyway.
So chief chef (not me) says: here’s the problem. I really like the continental style MH but how the heck do I manage with two gas rings and hardly anywhere to spread out when cooking. I can think of several solutions: eat out, use one pan and just reheat something, cook outside. .... and so on.
So does anybody have any helpful thoughts on how we would change our cooking and eating habits to match our continental friends who, presumably, get by perfectly adequately?
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Kitchens don't come much smaller than in our Eriba- 3 gas rings, no oven, no grill, and no microwave - so we bought a £30 mini electric oven that lives under the bed and comes out for heating up ready meals, but we never barbecue. We have toured mainland Europe that way for ten years, but only rarely in the UK.
Breakfast is continental + fruit and juice + cereal and yogurt + an old Italian espresso pot boiling on one gas ring.
Lunch in France is either whatever we have bought in the morning market - paella, roast chicken or something else from the rotisserie van, or very, very often is main course + coffee from whichever local restaurant menu catches our eye. In UK we would go to a pub.
Supper is cold meats, ready made salads, cheese, fruit , extravagant patisseries, and wine.
Frankly we never actually cook anything.
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Mrs Hitch, several takes on this....
if in europe (or anywhere) in warm weather, you will be eating different food to a cold winter day in the UK.
we've just had 6 weeks in warm weather and (apart from our time on aires) cooked (usually chops/steaks/chicken/fish) on an electric hotplate powered from a socket in the garage....and often had this with salad (and wine...).....so, just a chopping space needed for salad prep, which also could easily have been done outside.
flip this on its head and think about (say) a cooked dinner on a wet UK Sunday......
we have 3 gas rings, with a split glass cover (1 & 2) but often manage with one ring, sometimes two...
our gas Thetford Duplex oven (same as in many a UK van which we had put in to replace one of the six drawers in the kitchen) can easily cook most UK 'main course' meats...and potatoes, as we have two shelves.
on the hob, its perfectly possible to (say) boil one pan and have one (or two) steaming above it, saving space and gas.....though its perfectly possible to make use of all three if required.
most non-UK vans have large(ish) lounge tables that are easily accessed from the kitchen to aid prep or prep storage....
the other thing to consider is 'how do i wash up'in a small kitchen...
this is where a bit of 'process/organisation' comes in....
in our van the hob is to the left of the sink, with the right hand portion of the glasscover closed, there is just room for a (ebay special) plastic draining board to fit between dirty dishes on the left and the sink on the right....this then allows most washing up,to be done without issue.
the other thing is that there is often a flip up extension piece on the end of the work top.
yes, the kitchens are often small, but (apart from a microwave which we rarely used in the past) all the rest is there, including large fridge/freezer, oven, 3 rings, but significantly, stacks of safe storage low down.
Re: the smaller lounge, its usual to spin the cab chairs (i notice you said you didn't do this in a previous post) and feet can be placed on the adjacent side seats......cab seats can be reclined as required, giving proper supportive seating for tv watching or reading, as well as sitting up to the table for dining on the lovely meal youve just made
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Washing up in an Eriba with a small sink, no draining board and no hot water supply? Joke ?
Dirty plates, cups and glasses go into a bucket outside and when it's full or when we have run out of clean ones, then once a day one of us (guess who) wanders over to the toilet block. to use the big sinks there. In France there is always company there, but in the UK I am always alone for that task.
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the OP is taklking about the facilities in a smaller type Hymer MH (Hymer Van, perhaps?) and this will certainly have hot water (and cold, both from tanks) which will enable washing up 'should this be desired'.
my notes abover were to illustrate that this task is perfectly possible (for two people's dirty dishes) again 'should this be desired'.
we wash up in the van.
when in Spain on our January tour, i did a spate of 'going to the block' to wash up.....my OH thought i was bonkers wandering around the site at night with a bowl full of crocks...
i did it for about three days and realised it was far less effort to just turn the hot tap on in the van.
whilst more than happy to socialise at any part of a site, i dont need to go looking for company near the toilets at 9pm in the dark.....
the OP asked about managing with a small(er) kitchen area, i have responded with some practical thoughts.
yes, washing up elsewhere is an option but they also want to be able to cook there, too.
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We have a Knaus with 3 burners and a TEC Tower oven, never use a microwave so when we looked if the van had one it was crossed off our list lol. The key is to prepare everything first (can stand prepared food on the massive table or shelf between lounge seats and kitchen) , put everything away as you use it, then get on with the cooking part, we rarely use more than 2 rings, cook roasts type things in the oven or use the same to heat up frozen meals from home or ready meals, one pot meals are also helpful such as stew etc. If doing chops, steak etc. we ahve a small cadac safari chef BBQ we use.
Washing up we use the sink and have one of those JML drying cloth/stand things to stand it on whilst it drains (hangs in shower when not in use) and by this time the hob is cool so we put the lid down to stand it on. We have a large area in front of out hob to use as well as the hob is at the back of the worktop under window.
As for lounging as BB says swivel front seats round, beer/wine open, feet up and bobs your mums brother.
It is really about thinking like a MHer and adjusting to suit your environment, we really only sit out abroad as we mostly tour out of season in the UK (4 trips planned to new year) so its not normally warm or dry enough to sit out seriously and we manage well, eat like we do at home with some adjustments.
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Michael, good post, well summed up.
there is a mindset 'thing' to get over for those who come from a caravan.
we had a thread on this very subject recently but i think the OP got scared off, with the compromises.
the additional storage capacity (and easy driveability) the tow car gives is suddenly not there, and this forces compromises not found previously.
compromise on space, due to the towcar engine being now inside the 'caravan' (MH), compromise on space to store all those large items that went in the towcar, too....hence some designs make use of a garage or across the rear full locker.
squeezing these things into a van thats not too unweildy to drive or park is a designers nightmare/challenge, but skillful design has spawned some interesting innovations and layouts....
just looking at the Broadway EB, if this van had a dropdown bed , ot would be very close to the wonderful Hymer 544, large lounge, large washroom/kitchen and huge A class dropdown bed...
so, inspired design can overcome some of the 'perceived issues'.
of course, its usually the compromises that caravanners see 'writ large' whereas those who have been MHing for a while (especially abroad) only see the advantages of easier stopping, use of aires, collecting shopping en route, faster travel (if necessary), access to town/city centres in the touring vehicle, no going back to site for the caravan once a newly visited town appeals....just stay there...etc, etc...
yes, a mindset change, for sure, but looks like Qashqai has the vision to see that touring life 'can' be made far simpler with a small MH.
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Some excellent advice from both B.B. and MichaelT. We have already made the adjustment from Caravan to small Motorhome and got rid of many things. Space is difficult in the Broadway and we just have the two picnic chairs for outside use as we use the supplied table outside and in. As we have the bench seats there is no need to swivel the front seats so have found it convenient to strap the picnic chairs behind - the shower compartment is already used as a bottle store.
So, the small Hymer T, Exsis or Van do the job because we can use the garage for picnic chairs, BBQ etc. (need to watch payload though). A bit reluctant to go too much over my current 6.3m length so that is a further restriction. Went down that route with the Caravan and ended up selling it as it was too big to lug around Europe.
The real compromise is the kitchen (for OH) so the advice is welcome, particularly concerning washing up. The AS is only 18 months old and we love it but OH is always willing to consider more ways of spending money!
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We have one of these, Multicooker.
Can use inside or out to cook /slow cook, bake, fry, steam rice veg etc. So versatile and portable.
makes excellent curries, stews, cooks joints of meat or half a chicken whilst out all day. Leaves the gas ring free for other things.
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lol, some more interesting points...
AD, great fun, we even see the Dutch cycle to Supermercado, where they collect (an obviously massively heavy) baguette and its only 100m from the site entrance.
weve seen toilet cassettes and aquarolls, wastemasters and wine boxes strapped (precariously) to various parts of bikes....
Micky, i havent asked Hitch specifically, but i think they use aires (service areas) from time to time and this would preclude the use of an electric heating product without very careful use of a large inverter, not recommended. so, perhaps a gas Cadac or equivalent might do on a non-ehu stop wherever.
Hitch, with regard to washing up, and considering your interest in Hymer, have a look at the B DL (Dynamic Line) 444, 6m, large dropdown bed (can be singles or a double), decent lounge, good washroom, a garage AND the largest kitchen youll see in a small van, with loads or work/prep space...
this is the nearest on the market to the terrific B544 of a couple of years ago.
no making up of beds, massive payload, large external storage....many pundits' Van Of 2017.....might be the odd last year model about going 'cheap'(er).
we were sorely tempted but just couldnt get the right deal from our local Hymer dealer, so went with the Carthago (which we love, incidently)
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We had a good look at that one when we were looking last year.
Kitchen is huge, but OH commented that she would have been more than happy to sacrifice some of the kitchen workspace for a better washroom with a properly separate and large shower.
We always cook meals in the van so I was rather sceptical over the mainly small kitchens in MHs, but OH reckoned she could work with it, using the various adaptions already mentioned.
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.many pundits' Van Of 2017.....might be the odd last year model about going 'cheap'(er).
Yep.......77 grand !
https://www.lowdhams.com/new-hymer-b-dl-444-motorhomes-57123.3
Very nice van tho'......
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We saw the drop-down bed at the show yesterday. Funny because the bed was down as we walked in and I asked where the cab was (the bed obscures the front seats and dash). Thought it was a Caravan at first! It’s a clever arrangement and we should have looked more closely but being a B Class it looked too big. Another pre-conception to overcome.
I imagine a B Class feels somewhat different to drive than a Coachbuilt. Although it looks big, the length and height are the same as a Coachbuilt and I suppose it is just the greater width at the front makes it seem bigger.
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chausson have (totally separate) twin single longitudinal beds in the fwd lounge area....
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Hitch, the A-class cab 'thing' is primarily an illusion....its not 'too big' its just making more of the vans external dimensions...
eg, the 444 has a full length width of 2.20m (ours is 2.12m) which means the cab is also 2.20m wide.
a 'normal' Ducato cab is 2.06 wide.
the coachbuilt bit behind most 'cabs' is around 2.30-2.35m, so you get a wider body but a narrower cab.
in an A-class you dont get the situation where the cab 'might' go through a gap but 'perhaps' the rear wider bodywork might not.
with the latest 'wider' Baileys, the difference between cab and body is more marked than in some others.
with an A-class, if the front goes through, it all goes through..the wider cab of an A-class also means that the cab seats spin far easier (no cab door armrests fouling the seats..).
now, the other real part of the illusion is the position of the windscreen, which is placed MUCH further forward, opening up the view outside as its deeper and wider.
the cab seats are actually in exactly the same position (relative to the cab base) as they are in 'normal' cabs....they just look different due to the windscreen being so much further away...
in fact, this type of van is far easier to place on the road and when parking as there is less 'hidden' bodywork, due to the cab being stretched out to the 'footprint' extremities....
looks/feels a bit odd at first drive, but after 5 minutes it all feels normal and the benefits of extra space and easier placement come through.
definitely nothing to be concerned about, and in a cab bed design like the 444, it can only work with an A-class.....this is why transverse drop downs in coachbuilts have to be pushed further back into the lounge.
if you (or anyone) would be happy sleeping in a fold away bed like these, then the one box flooplan (incl garage and large kitchen over it) really make great use of the space.
chausson and burstner are also pioneers of the 'dropdown one-box' designs, majoring on large rear washroom/wardrobes over the rear garage....however, neither are on an a-class....
Pilote (with its G600L) has this type of 6m layout with an A-class cab....
good hunting.
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Thanks for that. I meant A Class of course, not B Class. Certainly true that if the rear will go through a gap the front will as well and that the Coachbuilt just has the illusion of being much smaller. I can see that the A Class has great space around the cab and your point about swivelling seats is well made.
Perhaps there a a natural progression: tent - Caravan - Coachbuilt - A Class. I suspect van conversions sit outside this progression being excellent but for very different reasons.
Looks like we will be off to the February show to do some more research.
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although im not a huge fan of their 'cosmetic design finish' (colours/fabrics/furniture) i think they are one of the most forward thinking innovative companies around when it comes to floorpan layouts.
certainly not a 'more of the same but change the curtains' type of company.....
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I asked the head chef what she thought and she said she could manage without the hob providing she had an oven and a microwave!!! I think she was joking about the hob? From the cooking point of view it will depend on many things. Do you want to supplement motorhome internal cooking with additional appliances like bbq,separate hobs, cadac etc? If you are happy with that you can probably cope with minimal internal cooking options. Perhaps be prepared to change menu/meal options so they don't need more than two rings. The advantage of a decent kitchen in a motorhome might depend on whether you will use the van all year in the UK and Abroad. Outside cooking, in may view, is fine in hot climates but a bit pointless in less good conditions like a windswept bank holiday weekend in the UK where it loses a lot of its appeal and romance!!!
David
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also available with full UK oven/grill/hob...
enough room for the head chef?
all in a 6m MH with big garage and a proper double bed thats 145cm wide.
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It’s a Tardis. Definitely worth a close look.
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apart from not being able to get the deal we wanted, the only other (slight) downside for us was that the garage in the Carthago was taller and wider, making access for our bikes easier.
if we werent bike users we might have had the Hymer instead.
i know the price will be an issue for many, the Pilote i mentioned makes a good fist of being a cheaper option as do the small Burstner Ixeo Time models.
if its used being sought, a 2 yr old B544 would do very nicely.
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David, im not sure we make too many cooking compromises in the van, other than we dont have a microwave....3 gas rings, oven, grill do the job as well as any other van we've had, including two Swifts.
in fact, with some UK smaller kitchens, with the full cooker and the small type fridge both under the worktop, there's inevitibly a dearth of deep capacious drawer storage in which to keep pots, pans, tins, cereal, cutlery, crockery, and when travelling, kettle, water filter jug, chopping board, draining board, sink cover, gas kettle, place mats, coasters, steamer etc, etc....not to mention the enormous storage locker above, alongside the 'glasses' locker.
we had to 'sacrifice' one of our six drawers to have the Thetford oven/grill installed, but the five remaining do a great job of storing all the kitchen paraphernalia safely and low down...
the kitchen may be 'small' by worktop definition, but certainly has all the kit and storage space we could ever want.
as to cooking outside, yes, like many, we have the means to do this. with and without a hookup.....an electric hotplate can be plugged into an outside socket (in fact we used this regularly on our last break in Spain), and also a gas Cadac for THS/CL sites etc....
i agree with you, i wouldn't be outside cooking in December in the rain in the UK, dont know many that would, but in the summer we have the canopy to provide shelter from the vagries of an English summer......
i really dont think folk should get too hung up on kitchen size. provided it functions well, has the kit and the storage needed, im sure a bit of process re-engineering will overcome most perceived issues.
...and while i am definitely someone who loves their mealtimes (and enjoys simple cooking), we didnt buy the van for the kitchen, there were other things that were far more important.
yes, i thought it might be 'tricky' preparing/cooking/washing up but (with sensible organisation) these thoughts were largely unfounded.
so, to anyone who is looking at the kitchen in a 'new' van, do as we would do with the beds or the shower....get in there and try it out, go through the motions of meal prep or actually siting the pots on the hob, checking the position of the oven etc.....and even the washing up process....
i might look like a twit at the NEC lying in a drop down bed, sitting on a toilet, having a 'shower' or cooking my dinner but, hey, its my cash and i want to check these things out.
BTW, for those with a round sink lookkng for a compact draining board, the photo is one i found online and this takes up little space, easily accommodate washing up for two people and drains nicely into a round sink.
good hunting all......
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We have no mindset to get over. Only ever toured in this country, and on the whole, Summer weather has been kind to us, can recall endless weeks of sunshine on some holidays. Our very old caravan has only two gas burners and a very good grill. That is it. We have on occasion taken a small steamer, and used this without filling the van with steam or smells. We don't barbecue, don't eat meat, so hate the fuss and carting one about. We have had friends round for dinner on a regular basis, so we can still cater well. OH has asked my numerous times if putting an oven in would help, but I just don't need one.
Our MH has a great oven and four burners, and yes we eat slightly different, making use of oven, but I never have more than two gas burners in use. There are some great recipes for 1/2 pans if anyone likes to eat that way, which we do. Less washing up as well. It wouldn't be the number of gas burners that decided our next MH model, more the overall layout and size. We are torn between a rear u shaped lounge in an English model, or the raised beds in a smallish Hymer with less lounging space. Not seriously looking yet though.
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So much depends on lifestyle - we have an Autosleeper Broadway and like it for the lounging (napping) bench seats! I could manage with the kitchen of a continental van as we use our oven to store the saucepans and cook on the hob or microwave but (apart from step issues) would not like the small seating area with fixed table found in most Hymers etc. (Just a thought for the lazy among us
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It’s more about the preparation area than the number of gas rings but as others have said you need to make use of the table to add to the work surfaces.
One thing with the Hymers at the show, they had quite high interior specification but despite the loaded price they often didn’t have a canopy and none had solar panel. They are both a standard extra pack on the Autosleeper, along with cab a/c and cruise control. Makes the Hymer very expensive. If you add in some nice features like electric operation on the bed, electric roller blind etc. I would guess it could end up at £85k.
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Hitch, OH tends to spread out and use the table far more than me (she tends to be more 'untidy' in the kitchenwink), whereas, with the hob lids down and the sink cover in place, i find there is plenty of room for prep.
ok, as i finish one bit i clear any waste (organic or packaging) into the bin straight away, leaving space for the next task....i dont find this a hassle, it also means that there isnt one 'large mess' to clear away at the end.
its then easy to turn attention to the actual cooking, for which there is generally plenty of room, as you say.
re: Hymer prices....hmmmm....not a lot you can do other than be a bit careful when going through the extras list.....some of these (packs) will (in effect) be 'mandatory' as the factory will never produce a van without them.....
from my own research i would say that you could 'get away with' packs/extras of between £5-8k...
i know this seems a lot but there is a significant difference in the quality/price of the base model build....not to be confused with the seemingly higher level of electrical gadgets/fitments in lesser vans....its far cheaper to fit a microwave than to build a double floor and install all the plumbing, electrics and heating there.
the other options are to, perhaps, go for a model already on the forecourt with different (less, cheaper) options or even to go for a one (or two) year old model.
good browsing....0
