Congratulations ....
To all those students picking up another excellent year's sets of A level results today.
Whilst polticians continue to meddle and try to prove there macho credentials by toughening up the system, the students and their teachers have got on with the job of working hard and today's news is just reward for them all! 
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Yes fully echo M's words there.
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Congratulations from me- Now they can look forward to University and getting fleeced by the system and be in horrendous debt just as they are starting out on life's path- While Principals and Vice Principals award themselves huge pay packets - some in excess of £400.000 ! This has got to change- and while they are about it, they might look at reversing the dumbing down of the curriculum and raise the standards again.
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Well done on the successes. Our teachers are surely doing something right.
This is a time to celebrate all that is good in education, not to be negative.
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Congratulations to all students
it doesn't seem 5 years since youngest son, picked up his results, mind you he wasn't that worried as he'd already found out his place at Loughborough University was confirmed. 0 -
Ah, I was going to agree with you up until that last sentence, Merve! I'm hoping it was said tongue in cheek!
But your first point is true - what a sad reflection on our society that the best message we can give these 18 year olds is "go to uni and rack up huge debts, but don't worry, you probably won't end up earning enough to have to repay them".
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Absolutely Moulesy. It's a private company now too . I feel so sorry for them particularly after 2 of mine have been through the machinery. A massive debt just at the time they need every penny to get started with a home and family. I have always been of the opinion that only the cream should go to University and the State should pay for the talent from which the state is going to benefit. It's a Ponzi scheme! Not my words- ones of a politician. Now my last sentence! There has definitely been a dumbing down of educational standards. The exams and the courses are not as hard as they used to be and I think that is understood by most as they seek desperately to include the less able. GCEs being downgraded to GCSEs was an example. I'm not saying there are no brilliant students, of course there are, but the general standard now is of a lower standard- they aim for mediocrity and exceed their wildest ambitions. Most students paying through the nose at the moment to get an education would be far better getting an apprenticeship or going into commerce at the ground floor. I always knew I wasn't University material and I haven't grown up with a chip on my shoulder in any way as the lefty liberals would have you believe. There are those that can and those that can't- that's life - get over it is what we were told and it's stood me in good stead rather than giving me false horizons and false hopes and getting me owned by the banks before I even started out. I'm sorry
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Now my last sentence! There has definitely been a dumbing down of educational standards. The exams and the courses are not as hard as they used to be and I think that is understood by most as they seek desperately to include the less able.
Merve - I'm sorry but that is simply not true. Today we're talking about A levels and, although it's 7 years now since I retired, I think I can speak with some experience, at least about my own subject, maths. When I retired I kept my collection of worked A level papers (pure maths, stats and mechanics) going back to about 1990. Looking at this year's papers the questions asked could have been set 10 or 20 years ago and I dare say earlier than that. Whatever "most" understand, A level papers are rigorously scutinised and there is little evidence that standards have eroded over the years.
As for GCSEs, these were introduced to combine GCE and CSE into one exam system. To achieve what was the equivalent of an old GCE pass, a grade C was required. Now when the exams went modular it may have meant that more youngsters were able to achieve that standard as they could resit modules they had failed. This is not the same as saying that the standard had been lowered. Modules of course and coursework are now largely a thing of the past.
I do despair each year at this discrediting of youngsters' achievements, commonly made with absolutely no evidence at all. I'd thought better of you than that!
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I too find it sad to cast aspersions on the educational level of hard working students. Within my extended family I know of many that have been working frantically to achieve the best they can, losing sleep with worry, total commitment is given. I have nothing but respect & admiration for both the students & the teachers.
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Now they can look forward to University and getting fleeced by the system and be in horrendous debt just as they are starting out on life's path
I too dislike the idea of student loans rather than a grant. However I think personally that the grant should be in place for career paths and skills that the country needs. Not all necessarily at degree level.
My thoughts are coloured by the fact that I too had to rely on a loan from Midland Bank, as was. Partly my choice. I started pollytechnic doing civil engineering. My mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer shortly afterwards. I missed my first years exams due to her death and funeral and chose to restart the course rather than continuing to year two. I was married a few months later with our first child two weeks after. I could not get a married grant having already started the course and, because my father suggested that I did not get married refused to take any money from him. We did not fall out but I was a principled B. I had enough money stashed away to buy a mobile home and, later, to replace our car. The grant that I got from the LEA was not enough to pay for more than my books. My bank manager in Leeds agreed to fund me at zero interest until I started work. In those days bank managers had discretion!
So as a student I had a loan.
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Hi mousely, I know you are an ex teacher and of course I would expect you to protect your profession. Only right and proper. I don't understand though why there seems to be a general misunderstanding?? Who could possibly be causing this? Only today I read that most 'degrees' at University are less than useless for the young person involved. You talk about Maths, Higher Maths etc. I did say in my statement that there are the exceptional students and they are the ones that we need to send to Uni. - and if we are talking your subject, I think that you have to be pretty special material to get your head around the very dedicated and serious business of Maths but come on,you must know of degrees that you are very doubtful about. You shoot the messenger and yet many people say what I have said. Can they all be wrong? I doubt it. I have a strong belief that degrees have almost been invented so that Unis continue to be funded. - media studies? Many of these 'Universities ' were nothing but Polytechnics a few years ago- now they are Universities. I'm not getting at the students but the system they find themselves in. It's an appalling state of affairs - to put a young person under such strain so early is tantamount to cruelty. Some will never pay it off, others will work for years to do so and others have declared themselves bankrupt. Is this how it should be? Education is now a business not about what it should be about. Introduce money into anything and the substance is immediately watered down. I mean no offence to your profession sir! and if you took offence I am heartily sorry.
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Me too Rocky- I have 2 kids that went to Uni- one became a qualified teacher, the other took business studies and finance and has done extremely well for himself but not as a direct result of his degree as it happens. They have both only just paid their loans off after 10yrs or so as I said- good hard working kids, I don't dispute that - shame about the system though!
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I do wonder though why I read of University professors, of all people, saying that the quality of some students now, is below what is expected and below what they have had in the past- some can't even read and write properly! Not my words before you jump on my back. The other thing I wonder about is 'Why and How did 'clearing centres' come about? May I suggest a reason- because if they don't fill the degree course, the University in question does not receive full funding!! So what do they do- they search around and fill up with students who, let's face it, did not make the grade- now, is that lowering standards? I would argue it is. Money is more important than results. Moulesy, I absolutely get your argument about your Maths students- a maths student is a very special animal- get one calc wrong and it's all wrong- there really is no wriggle room for such students- they HAVE to get it right- you are either brilliant or you fail- simple - and there are other degrees that follow a similar pattern like engineering, physics etc but unfortunately, there are those degrees that don't. I won't go on as I have always respected your posts Moulesy and of course that hasn't changed but there are students and students- they all (with a few exceptions) work very hard but I would have to be daft not to see that some are just not up to the task they set themselves and that others who should know better, have set them too.
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I fully agree with you M on all counts.
As an examiner at A level (just spent an evening doing requested remarks - no changes there usually isn't in maths) I can assure that papers set today are the equal of those in past years. In fact they have got a little harder with more unstructured questions coming in.
also the new GCSE specifications (that's a syllabus in old speak) have been made far harder with topics from A level now been introduced into the higher level and some higher level topics have now gone into foundation level.
Also Merve you're showing a slight lack of knowledge of how exams work. they are norm referenced not criteria referenced, that means that whether the exam is a hard one or easier that year only the top 5% (say) will get the top grade and so on down the grades. So it's the top students who get the top grades every year, in effect it doesn't matter how easy or hard the exam is, it is impossible exactly to get the same level of difficulty each year. This norm referencing has been going on for a very very long time btw
again if you can post some evidence of where you think this dumbing down has actually happened that would be useful
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a maths student is a very special animal- get one calc wrong and it's all wrong- there really is no wriggle room for such students- they HAVE to get it right- you are either brilliant or you fail- simple
Again you show a complete lack of understanding of how maths papers are marked and in reality how maths works, It is just not like you describe. So you are saying that a students obtains a C grade as they answered 4 fully correct and four fully incorrect ? That is just plain nonsense. I have been remarking papers ( a students pays for this if they think they should have got a better mark) this evening and it is obvious why the students have requested a remark. They have indeed answered all the questions but have made errors along the way, perhaps scoring five out of eight marks on a particular question.
It is not all right or wrong as you suggest in maths. There are method marks (M) and there are accuracy marks (A), there are also simple recall knowledge marks (B), all of these come together to obtain a raw score on the paper which is then processed so one or two single marks will not change a grade boundary and then norm referenced to obtain a grade.
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I think this is a thread where we should take notice of the professionals rather that the hearsay posted by lay people.
We've found before on CT that there are people only too quick to knock teachers, the education system as a whole and the standards of students. It loses impact after a while and becomes dreary.
Why don't we simply accept that the professionals amongst us have a far better idea of what's going on than those of us who are way, way out of touch?
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Congratulations to all students for their achievements.
Both our children went to uni and I was in the fortunate position of being able to fund all their accommodation and educational material expenses. They took out small loans for all the other stuff. They had to start repaying their loans nearly straight away as they both got good, reasonably well paid employment. If we are to believe it the student loan system (Guardian) is 100 billion in the red with little or no likelihood of it being paid off.
I do have some sympathy with the view that too many young people go to uni when you see a drop out rate of nearly 10% in the first year (difficult to get exact figures). In line with a lot counties we need a lot more technicians rather than engineers. Until recently our daughter worked at a local college, they could get loads of hairdressers etc, but very often technician apprenticeships were under subscribed
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But we all have our own experiences and views. My wife worked in a school for over 20 years and we regularly socialise with a number of her colleagues and ex colleagues and it's interesting to listen to their interaction.
I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to believe that because I worked in my industry for 40 years that my view is the right one.
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Merve wrote
Many of these 'Universities ' were nothing but Polytechnics a few years ago- now they are Universities. I'm not getting at the students but the system they find themselves in.
Not sure why you are so disparaging about Polytechnics Merve. When I went to Kingston 40+ years ago it was a Polytechnic. However, the honours degree courses were all set and administered by a University. They were just taught by the Polytechnic. Indeed we had to travel into London every day for our finals, as we were not allowed to sit them at the Poly. Now they are Universities, I assume they set there own exams. Whatever, Kingston is still highly regarded, which is why I fail to understand the point you are trying to make.
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My interest isn't of how the system is built or how it is governed but of the countless hours put in by the students & teachers, blood sweat & tears to either do better or to ensure the students have the best chances. That is(to me) worthy of both my respect & admiration. I for one will not knock that level of commitment. I did my schooling many years ago, today is a different world of learning & employment. I don't give a stuff what hearsay or Frank down the pub says. I have built my opinion of real live people who I know, they are all head & shoulders above me & are deserving of support not pot shots at their achievements.
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I am not knocking Polys. They have produced excellent people. I accept that we have professionals on here and that I am no doubt at a disadvantage. I will therefore retreat from what I was saying. The perception is though , and this can't be denied, the Education of our children is less than perfect. That's why my two daughters are home schooling. My SIL (not Frank down the pub!) is head of dept at a school in Somerset. She would be the first to tell you that there are rubbish teachers and that they can't be got fit rid of because of the unions. Anyway, I apologise for ruffling feathers. If my posts are off mark I am in the boat with many in this country that think there is something wrong with the education system and again, I'm not blaming the professionals who work hard to get the best out of our kids and although Rocky seems to just want to have a go ,as I said before which seems to have gone unnoticed, I admire the work that all involved put in, I blame the system that continually interferes with education.
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Merve, you tend to use that 'having a go' comment on folk who have an alternative opinion to yours. I see it as healthy. My opinion differs to yours, it most probably always will. I enjoy counter opinions, I certainly don't take them personally nor get upset. Yes we are different, rejoice in that
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Merve - I certainly wasn't offended by your comments on my own behalf, just disappointed to see the annual disparagement of hard working student's achievements, but then I'm not really sure, having read all your posts, who or what it is you're criticising - students? teachers? universities? polys? politicians? You seem to swing from one to another with ease.
A lot of your points have been answered by others, but just to pick up on your question about clearing centres - that system was around when I was applying for uni almost 50 years ago now, so no modern day spawn of the devil!
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+1
Clearing is simply to match up those students who didn't get in to their chosen university and are marched up with a course still not full at another. It is certainly not for low ability students to match them with any old university. Usually it is someone who needed grades (say) A B B and 'only' obtained A B D. For the those popular universities and courses this is often the case of asking for high grades. For Medicine it will be straight A*. My own GP, (my age) says he would now not get in to university with his own A levels grades.
A report done a few years ago showed that success at A level wasn't that good a predictor of success at degree level. And there was certainly no correlation between those that went through clearing and those that didn't in terms of final degree awarded.
I find it a shame that whatever the background a thread posted to congratulate and celebrate achievement now, could not be kept up in that manner.
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