Motorway Gantry Warning
We are all well aware that many Motorway Gantries have lane Speed Cameras located on the rear of them for obvious reasons. Recently (so I’m told) they have started to upgrade these cameras so that when a lane is closed and the Red Cross (lane closed) is showing the cameras turn into a form of Traffic Light Camera. Firstly, you would see the White Arrow indicating that you need to move into the next lane, this could be the lane(s) to your left or the lane(s) to your right for example. You may see this repeated on the next gantry or so before you approach the gantry displaying the lane Red Cross. I strongly advise you not to pass under said gantry as the lane is officially closed from this point forward.
Colin
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I think this is the whole idea of "smart" motorway systems, complete with warning messages about nearby roads etc. On the M5 motorway last week in the SW warnings about A303 solstice traffic appeared, better than the usual eye watering fuel price lists. It's a good step forward but not if you're queuing on the M6 where the next stage is being fazed in, it's a bit of a pain just now.
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Personally I think the all lanes running 24/7 type and no hard shoulder, are a step back. The original concept, where the hard shoulder is only used during peak congestion, as on the M42 past Birmingham is very good and safe. I am not sure why they have moved away from this. On the all lanes running type in free traffic, you have the potential of vehicles traveling at 70 / 80 mph coming up behind something broken down in the near side lane. The warning signs are only every mile, safety refuges similar, and they are so short you would almost have to come to a stop to pull in with a caravan.
The M42 version, also has many more gantries across all lanes, than the cheap skate version,with small rectangular signs, on the M1 through Derbyshire.
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I too am not happy about the loss of the hard shoulder. On the M25 there are always vehicles that have broken down and often there is not a nearby refuge that they can get to. A refuge only works if the vehicle is still mobile, otherwise there is a danger of rear end shunts. As I have recently seen.
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The final finishing is now underway on the M8,M73,M74 improvement programme. This has involved making a lot of three lane motorway up to four lane. This has been done by widening cuttings, bridges and embankments at great expense compared to the "smartification" process.
Of course, transport is one of the areas that is devolved and not ruled from Westminster.
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Travel to Scotland at least once a week sometimes twice (employment reasons) and I must admit it was hell on earth with the rush-hour traffic during the said improvement program. now it's all about finished, I now fly through the interchanges (M8,M73 & M74) at rush-hour times. They appear (for once) to have done their sum's correctly with regard to Highway Planning.
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I find the new "Smart" managed motorways system, very good and have seen them develop all over the motorway system.
Despite its technical complexity, the new system is clearly much cheaper to implement than acquiring land & rebuilding the bridges etc, that creating a new running lane would cost. More recently there was a modification to the systems advising motorists that only those intending to use the next exit should use the hard shoulder lane. The use of the nearside hard should lane is only implemented at times of congestion anyway, so traffic should be moving slower. But the flexible speed limit facility is also introduced at those times to increase safety.
I agree that the new managed motorways concept is not as good as the original motorway concept. But the original concept was way back when there was far less traffic using the motorways. The Country simply cannot afford to clear the congestion by building new lanes, so the new system which once settled down does improve the peak hour congestion is the best solution. Use of hard shoulder running should only happen at peak congestion times!
TF
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I use the M1/M25 fairly frequently for leisure/personal purposes and my take on the situation is that a properly constructed four lane motorway keeps the traffic moving far better than a so called managed motorway. I would be very interested to know what the cost difference is as I have a feeling that paying the extra for a proper fourth lane might be better value in the longer run.
David
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Perhaps you have not come across them TF. The ones I am taking issue with are the all lanes running 24/7 type. Not the ones where the hard shoulder is only used at peak. In Nottinghamshire the M1 is true four lanes plus a dedicated hard shoulder. However as it passes into Derbyshire it becomes "Smart" all lanes running. The hard shoulder becomes the inside lane 24/7, not just at peak. There are rectangular signs, not full gantries, every mile and small emergency refuges at similar distances. In my opinion it is an accident waiting to happen.
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My issue with Overhead Gantry messages is how current are they?
1. Too often they seem to offer warnings to slow to 60, then 50, then 40 then End....when there appears to be nothing there. No doubt there was and that's good. But if an 'incident' has been cleared then say so.
2. We were heading for the Tunnel a month or so ago and were on A14 or M11 or thereabouts and there were warnings of 'congestion' at Dartford crossing. We decided to push on as we were going down and over from S Yorks in one day for the first time...when we got to Dartford - flew straight over! Frustrating. Could have stopped for a cuppa!
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SteveL You are correct in presuming that my earlier post was referring only to the type of "Smart System" that can identify congestion, such as the rush hour and can, as a temporary measure, permit 4 lane usage by converting the hard shoulder into a running lane for vehicles intending to take the next exit.
I do not support any system that uses a previously dedicated hard shoulder as a permanent running lane 24/7. To introduce such a system completely disregards the safety provision incorporated in the motorway concept world wide. As has already been said it can only create a very dangerous environment surrounding any break down or following a minor accident.
I have used the smart system many times on 3 lane carriageways in very heavy traffic. The freeing up of traffic hold ups, by permitting hard shoulder use to clear the congestion is very effective then, and if matched by a corresponding and legally enforceable lower speed limits, is unlikely to lead to accidents due to the increased safety margins and visibility.
TF
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I really hate it when the sign pops up "Incident - please slow" or words to that effect. How many of you have ever seen an "incident", and don't tell me its more than likely moved. I personally think that the motorway monitors don't like to see traffic moving at normal capacity and speed, and so will move heaven and earth to create an "incident" to slow everything down and create queues. Powers that be!
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"My issue with Overhead Gantry messages is how current are they?
1. Too often they seem to offer warnings to slow to 60, then 50, then 40 then End....when there appears to be nothing there."
The flow of traffic on a motorway is extremely complex and involves many factors not immediately visible to a single vehicle's occupants. One of the most dangerous in the Wave Effect.
When something occurs that causes the traffic to slow a bit a wave of slowing traffic works its way back upstream, often slowing to a lesser speed than traffic at the incident, sometimes even to a halt. This "slow wave" can then create a second wave upstream of it.
Drives encounter one of these waves and then once past it speed up thinking the cause has been aleviated. They then arrive at high speed into the slow wave in front, or the traffic delayed by the original incident. This is a major cause of the nose-to-tail crashes but is difficult to monitor as the wave can dissipate just as quickly as it forms.
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There would be less need for "smart" motorways if we had "smart" drivers who drove on the left when able to do so. Most three lane motorways effectively operate as two lane ones as so many seem reluctant to occupy the nearside lane.
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cyberyacht! Total agreement on that one!
It all stems back to the very early days of the Motorways, when a number of Politicians and Senior Civil servants, talked about Slow lanes, and Fast lanes etc. That was crass, as it failed to recognise that Physiologically few people wanted to think of themselves as being in the slow lane and therefore stuck to one of the other two lanes.
After a lot of pressure from the Police and the motoring organisations they finally changed the titles to lanes 1,2,and 3 etc. Sadly the original description of Lane 1 being the slow lane hung on for decades and still exists today.
The morons who still cling to lane 2 as their normal running lane will never be eliminated until the Police start stopping and issuing process against them. Sadly the days of Forces having proper motorways and major route Police patrols are a thing of the past.
TF
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Was there not an experiment somewhere down the M5 where this was tackled using nothing more than white paint?
Lanes one and two were merged and a new lane three started at a number of locations about five miles appart. The "middle" lane hoggers kept getting moved across to lane 1 as as they were not observant enough to realise what was happening.
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Cyberyacht, that attitude still exists on the Smart m/ways when the hard shoulder is opened to traffic in times of congestion.
It almost seems like the traffic moves to the right in order to avoid using the Hard shoulder / First lane.
I understand that money comes into the equation but I have long held TF's views that bad / dangerous drivers need to be punished sharply to break their bad habits. I know, I know not enough police or courts to handle the job, but I still keep wishing & twitching when I see a Hogger or a phone user. I dont give a tuppenny damn about them but I do care about the rest of us !!
P.S. / edit -- I wonder if Tigerfish has any data to hand on the relative safety of Managed / Smart motorways as opposed to the original motorways ?
Just wondering 'cos I understand that M/ways are supposed to be safer than dual carriageways etc
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Sorry, No really up to date data as I retired from the Police after 30 years in 1999. Then went into Local Govt as an elected Councillor and became a Cabinet member with Transport Responsibilities but stood down from that in 2015 due to declining health. So my comments are based on experience rather than backed up by data.
TF
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See here for ROSPA details, other comments from the AA etc are out there on the web if you google smart motorway safety.
The PDF fact sheet on the ROSPA site is a good read (if you can call it that!)
The club could be pro-active in offering advice on these new systems?
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Just had a look at your ROSPA link Brue, for which I thank you.
I was hoping TF might still have access to data, because I'm a cynical old { ++++++++++++ } and accept that politicians of national and local grouping, Road Safety Groups etc etc all have an axe to grind and any figures they put out are more than likely to be skewed in their favour.
Brian A B M
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Cyberyacht, that attitude still exists on the Smart m/ways when the hard shoulder is opened to traffic in times of congestion.
It almost seems like the traffic moves to the right in order to avoid using the Hard shoulder / First lane.
ABM I think some of the fault for this can be put down to poor signage. On the M42 past Birmingham, you get signs saying congestion use hard shoulder, then a few hundred metres further, hard shoulder for junction x only. If towing you barely have time to move in, before having to get out again. So when folk get to a sign that actually means you can use the hard shoulder for a decent distance, they are ignored.
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I didn't know that brue. However, when passing one on the M1 the other day, I mentioned to the OH that if we were ever forced to use one, when towing, we would have to wait for the police or highways people to slow traffic so we could get out again.
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Yes,travelling north recently, OH commented on the signs at the refuges saying just that.
With the volume and speed of the traffic on the M ways these days, it is only sensible.
Always glad as we get further north and the traffic calms down!
It does increase as we near Glasgow, but for some reason it does not stress me as much.
I must say, my impression is that the further south we go the worse the drivers are overall.......faster.....more impatient......more tailgating.....more unsafe overtaking....less sympathy for those not used to the area and the road layout.
Not that there are not plenty of idiotic drivers up here!!!
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