Motorhome "Weight" Limits. what is your opinion?
Hi
There is a thread running (elsewhere) on Motor-home weights and payloads, which has occupied minds for some days now. Simply put it goes on these lines:-
It would transpire that the vast majority of Motor-homes sold across Europe and the UK are "plated" at 3500kg. Some of which have been found, on reaching a weigh bridge to have actual Payloads of as little as 60kg. Now 60 kg does not even include a passenger!. Never mind the food in the lockers and the Fridge plus clothing and other, even "basic" associated "stuff", we Motor-home users tend to carry. The issue appears to be that in the UK and across Europe the Licensing regimes "cut off" at 3.5tonne. driving anything heavier requires a different Licence Grade, (in the UK that is C1).
The consensus is that the Manufacturers, are building for a 3500kg limit, and to a large extent are "missing the Target", with the end result that payloads are inadequate for their intended use. And, in my view, should be rejected by purchaser at point of sale.
I would submit that the most equitable solution to this dilemma, from both a manufacturer and user aspect would be to raise the base licence (UK 
to 4tonne? "for NON commercial use". OR giving Motor-Caravans their own Category with a 4t limit. A move which would take away the necessity to get "Creative" with what one carries for a leisure activity enjoyed my Millions in the UK and across Europe every year.
May I suggest that a "lobbying" campaign be carried out to have this considered, perhaps lead by our (newly revised) "Caravan AND Motorhome Club" in conjunction with the CCC and other interested bodies, and to bring Manufacturers on board, on the grounds that, again in my view, they would be beneficiaries of such a sane move.
An argument proposed against this move, in that your average "White Van Man" could use the "rule" to overload unsuitable vehicles, could be guarded against by even making the change as suggested, "for non commercial use ONLY"?.
Another argument I have seen, "Heavier Motor-Caravans would be more dangerous", does not hold water, there is no evidence that a Vehicle being driven by a 3.5t licensee is any more dangerous than one being driven by a C1 Holder?. In the vast majority of cases the SAME vehicle has just been down rated by the manufacturer to comply with the 3.5t limit.
Pete.
Comments
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I think part of the problem, or perhaps more accurately, the reason that most MH are rated at 3.5 tonnes is that the vehicles they are 'based on' are designed as 3.5 tonne mgw and are tested and type approved accordingly. To rate them any higher, I am guessing they would have to put them through other type approvals, which is a massive cost for a very few vehicles sold.
Unfortunately the UK can't currently adopt or introduce its own vehicle categories even if it wanted to, as these are kept the same across the EU. I think what the UK is going to be doing about such things in a few months time will probably leave HMG a bit busy to be worrying about a few Motorhomers (or much else at all) sadly.
I think the problem actually lies with any manufacturer who makes a MH with a payload of 60kg - such a vehicle clearly isn't fit for purpose?
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I see this was also on the C&CC forum.
The weight limit is to control commercial vehicles and I cannot see the figure being increased for safety reasons. An exemption for motorhomes might work but with Brexit in the pipeline will not happen.
A motorhome with an unreasonably low payload like 60 kg is not fit for purpose and you could go back to the dealer and demand your money back.
Given this problem it would be as well to establish the unladen weight before buying though.
If you increase the permitted gross weight though you may simply find that the unladen weight creeps up and the problem still exists.
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The small vehicles which a lot of people call motorhomes are based on a commercial vehicle of 3,500Kg gross weight. We all know that these can be driven by a person having a "B" driving licence ( a standard car licence). The greatest market opportunity for the producer is therefore vehicles with
,500Kg gross weight. Motorcaravans as I call them sometimes, or Camervans as we call our Hobby with a Gross of 3,800Kg, has the weight of driver and passengers included in the actual gross weight. Any such vehicle marketed with insufficient plated payload for passengers sitting in the number of belted seats provided, is a nonesense and potential buyers should refuse to accept them. It would be a driving offence to exceed the vehicle payload.0 -
I think you could make the same argument for people towing caravans as the 3500kgs limit on licenses since 1997 is to my mind on the low size. My option would be to change the license requirements to 4250kgs for both. Is this controlled by the EU or the Vienna Convention on road traffic?
David
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I think that this is a serious problem with many MHs not fit for purpose. The answer lies with the converters not being honest about weights and wanting to sell MHs to a market that is restricted to 3500kg. The issue is further exacerbated by the fact that the regulations allow for a 5% tolerance in the MIRO that can be exploited. The regulations also allow the converter to quote what is included in the MIRO any way they like. The industry standard for a person is 68kg +7kg for luggage=75kg, not many folk weigh that nowadays.
Most Fiat Ducato 3500kg MHs are actually 3650/3700kg design weights just down plated to 3500kg to make them accessible to a larger market. The designers also have a responsibility to distibute the load between axles. The Bolero is a case in point. My 2010 model had the fresh water tank and leisure batteries between the axles. My new one has them both behind the rear axle and the spare wheel is right at the back. The gas bottles have moved from in front of the rear axle to behind the front axle but the old gas locker is still there and is now for storage that makes up for the loss of storage from the front seat box. As I have a tow bar and rear cycle rack I can't carry any water when carrying 2 bikes. I can't upgrade to 3700kg as it is the rear axle weight that is at it's limit and that doesn't change. As I am aware of this then I can avoid (hopefully) running over weight but it is not practicle to weigh the van every time I go away. If I didn't have a tow bar and twin leisure batteries then it wouldn't be such a problem so I don't want to put anyone off buying this vehicle. That brings up another issue. MIRO is quoted for the standard base vehicle, something hardly anyone buys. Start adding options, even trim options and auto transmission, the payload starts coming down.
There has been lots of talk about increasing the driving licence limit to 4250kg and I think this is the only option and the problem would mostly disappear over night. It is no more dangerous driving a 4250kg MH than a 3500kg MH and the physical size can be pretty much the same. When I tow a car on an A-frame I am running at 4500kg anyway and well within the MTPLM of 5500kg0 -
If you want a 4,000kg gross then you need a bigger one. They are available, and so is the driving licence. I don't think any amount of petitions will change the way licences are organised.
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I wouldn't have to go bigger if I wanted a MH plated at 4000kg. The Ducato comes with design weights up to 4250kg on single rear axle.
When reading MH reports in magazines it is incredible how often the testers comment that in standard form the payload is inadequate and recommend the optional upgrade.0 -
Why not just get it upgraded then?
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The rear axle is at its limit so I would not be able to achieve the design weight of 3700kg.
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You bought the wrong one then. Surely you knew you couldn't exceed 3,500Kg when you bought it, and if you (and passenger if applicable) are a lot more than 68Kg each you could eat into your payload a lot. I know a lot of people are, including me. Additionally you have other extra weights too. Unfortunately we have to include all these when doing the calculations to chose a vehicle.
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Long story cut short. My van has a MGVW of 7200kg. My understanding with a C1+E License under grandfather rights noted by comment 107 on my driving license I could have a combined weight up to 8250kg. Therefore with my van at 7200kg I could tow a car weighing up to 1050kg. That's where I was wrong. It was logical when explained by the Chief Inspector of Traffic at Police Scotland.
Without getting into the legal debate about A Frames we use the defence that our cars are no longer cars when the A Frame is fitted, it is a trailer. Given that argument then it is not the physical weights of the vehicle it's the Gross Vehicle Weight that needs to be added to the GVW of the van and needs to be less than 8250kg regardless of what both vehicles actually weigh on a set of scales.
This concerned me so have completed the C1+E course passed the examination and the 107 restriction has been removed and I'm good up to 12 tonnes.
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No. I didn't buy the wrong vehicle and of course I knew that I could not exceed the plated weights. Fully laden I can operate at 3500kg, I just have to be careful with how much water I carry when I have 2 bikes on the back, which isn't all the time. I know this because I have weighed the vehicle with 2 bikes and a full tank of water, full tank of fuel and everything else I carry including myself, the wife and the cat.
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So, what's up then?
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Nothing. I know the limits and how to avoid being overweight in the different modes that I travel in. I was responding to the OP and adding my own experience to show how easy it was to exceed the rear axle weight and that upgrading does not necessarily solve the issue.
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I would imagine it's rare for motorhomes to be taken to a weighbridge by VOSA or the police. It seems more that commercial vans are the ones they check on a regular basis.
Obviously that's not an excuse to go mad with overloading your motorhome, and certainly making sure you're within the rated weight of the vehicle and your licence is very important if you want to avoid the risk of prosecution if you're in an accident.
Remember that you can get a little more payload by only filling your fuel tank half way up, in my VW T5 that'd give me an extra 40 kilos, although I'm way below the 3500Kg limit even when it's fully loaded with food and pop.
Axle weights are quite important too if you want to avoid damage to the components
It's also a really good incentive for that diet you've been putting off since New Years 🙂
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I shall proceed in blissful ignorance until such time as I can find a public weigh bridge in my area. They seem to be non-existent.
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If you read the forums its not as uncommon as you may think. It appears VOSA are becoming increasingly aware of the issue and tendency for motorhomes to be overloaded.
I have never been stopped in 20 years of owning a motorhomes and passing many road site VOSA check stations.
My concern regarding overloading would not be with the threat of a VOSA check but more around if I were to be involved in a bad accident. You would find yourself in a situation where you have no insurance. In the event of a serious accident it could ruin you for life with huge claims.
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Hi
With due respect, I think you are missing the point, I posted a discussion on weight limits being inadequate, ie. un-reasonable payloads, and suggested that the issue could be rectified, for the vast majority, by the simple process of raising the 3.5t B licence limit to (say) 4t. something I personally find reasonable.
There is no evidence that this move would increase danger in any way, the vast majority of vehicles of 3.5t GVW are built as (at least) 3750t GVW. but downgraded by the maker. The physical size is exactly the same dimensions. There is even less evidence that a move to 4t would in some way deteriorate the ability to pilot such a vehicle. And such would not universally be loaded to the maximum.
The block to this happening, would appear to be a Bureaucratic one, (as normal). In that some "oik" with a shiny backside pulled a figure out of the ether one day and decided that it would be written is stone.
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I think the 3.5 tonnes is arbitary, but you have to draw a line somewhere, but it is not aimed at motorhomes but commercial vehicles. The number of motorhomes is so small in comparison to commercial vehicles that it would make no statistical difference but the numbers being so small would not get enough support to put through any change and as I have said the problem would recur at whatever figure you chose.
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Over the 3.5t opens the can of worms labeled "Operator Licence".
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Which ONLY applies to Commercial use. NOT a private use as do Tachograph`s et-Al.
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Good post Gadget man, it was Brussels's madness to limit Cat B to 3.5 tons. It was done with the harmonisation of EU driving licence and I believe both Clubs lobbied for it to be set at 4.25 tons. I cannot see it changing even with Brexit
peedee
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At risk of stating the b******g obvious, surely the risk of being in breach of your insurance policy details...and therefore uninsured....is as important, if not more so than the risk of prosecution. I get the feeling insurance companies are increasingly looking to inventive ways to get out of big claims so such things as tyre ratings, loading, speed limits etc all give them an opportunity to wriggle....and don't forget that over 3.5tonnes affects speed limits too. In the same way, driving a vehicle over 3.5 tonnes without the proper licence .....which many younger drivers will not have without taking the proper test....could invaludate insurance too. And on the point about towing, I have often wondered how insurance companies feel about having two vehicles at risk at the same time......do such users tell their insurance companies they are doing that? If not they are putting themselves at risk of considerable financial loss if taken out by, for instance, a rogue continental trucker. It happens!
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