A Frame
Any one used an A Frame to tow a car behind a Motorhome in the last year or so. Can’t seem to find anything on any of the forums after 2015. All the installers that you talk to say that it is now legal in Europe and produce loads of facts and figures. Very confused and would love some input from other Motorhome users.
Cheers. Paul
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I have towed all over Europe towing a car on an A Frame with the exception of Spain where they are clearly not tolerated without any issue.
We no longer take the car to Europe as we prefer the freedom of aires / stellplatz etc.
I tow the car all over the UK where I have never experienced an issue. If you want any advice on A Frames I would suggest you talk with the expert who in my opinion is Graeme the MD of Towbars to Towcars in Grimsby. A company I have dealt with for a number of years and have converted a few cars for me. I would never have handed over my 3 day old Mercedes SLK for conversation to anyone but him. He did a great job, it was a challenge but they had the technical ability to overcome all the challenges the Mercedes threw at them, like the GPS selects which side the fog light should be on depending which country you are in, or the auto application of the handbrake if the car starts to roll (or be towed) whilst the engine is not switched on and all 4 wheels are on the ground.
They are an extremely experienced company and a pleasure to do business with.
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Hi
Good post from Stewart above.
I towed my ford ka for 6 years behind a chieftain, mostly in UK but also winters chasing the sun. Far easier than a trailer. On two separate winters in Spain I've been stopped and fined and had to separate the car from van, and I know several of folk who have been treated the same. Whether you've been given bits of paper from the a frame fitter deeming it legal is irrelevant when the Guardia Civil Trafico stop you and decide it's not. If you're not fluent in the language of the country you're stopped in and familiar with their beaurocracy, it's not worth it.
I've seen quite a few French and Italians this winter here in Spain towing with a frames and still quite a few Brits, hey for me it's once bitten.
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Same old chestnut, the problem is that they are neither legal or illegal, hence it's up to the local copper to make a call. Most if not all will turn a blind eye, except importantly in Spain.
The fitting companies chose to use the argument if they are not illegal then they are legal, which is not strictly the case, but it suites them.
Frankly I like A-frames, (even though it's almost impossible to reverse them), however I'm not prepared to take the risk, so I use a proper car trailer and have never had the slightest problem..
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Towing with an A-frame in the UK is not a problem, I have been doing it for nearly 20 years without issue. It's a different story over the water though and I wouldn't recommend it. Putting a car on a trailer has its own issues not least loss of payload and overloading of the rear axle.
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disagree with H B about reversing, I was able to reverse my Yaris perfectly, with the help of a twin reversing camera.
my set-up was a Car-a-tow system, worked perfectly for several years until we downsized to a PVC.
i didnt have the tow capacity for my car and a trailer, so A-frame it had to be. Never took it abroad. Insurance with the club for both car and motorhome ensured fully comprehensive at ALL times.
recommend it.
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I can reverse with the TB2TC system without issue and they have a video on their website showing it being done.
The issue with reversing is with the older over-rum braking A Frames which are becoming less common due to the physical weight and size issues. I think more and more are changing over to the electronic systems.
With regard to legality within the UK DVLA have given there opinion that provided the car complies with trailer design and construction regulations they have no issue. However, as we are all aware legality is the opinion of a court. To date I have never heard of anyone being charged with regard to the use of an A Frame in the UK hence no test case.
Please lets not open the legal illegal debate again, it has been done thousands of times and we all know there is no definitive answer only the UK courts can decide :-)
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YES YES YES ,you can reverse with an " A " frame !! I've put it on C.T many times after perfecting it with my Smart behind the Autocruise.Place a pair of strong 'bungies' (expanders) ,one each round the steering spokes and clipped to perhaps the seat base.Normal reversing is then possible ,just like any trailer .Been there ,Done it ,left ,right ,or straight !! NO PROBLEM. !!TRY IT & SEE
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But doesn't Trailer Design and Construction Regs. state the trailer (ie A framed Car) should have the ability to reverse without intervention. Unless the bungees are constantly in place, which I'm not sure if they are, would the method comply.
If you have to jump out the van and attach the bungee straps I think that would be out with compliance of said regs, but I'm no expert, just my interpretation.
I also assume this is an electronic A Frame we are talking about, conventional over-run systems would apply the brakes of the car as soon as you go into reverse, hence the school of thought to no longer be in compliance with the DVLA stated regs
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Regardless of wether the bungee's are in place or not when being towed,the car still travels following the towing vehicle,as would a boat ,luggage,horse box or caravan.All wheels would follow,and did when i used this system.The 'A' frame i used (by Car-a-Tow of Poole) was not an electronic one ,but a standard model.The overrun brake would only operate/come on if the tow hitch parted from the tow ball thereby pulling the brake on in the towed car.Very unlikely ,unless there was a serious accident ,and either vehicle turned over.
From what i have seen boat trailers don't even have an attached breakaway wire.Until the instigation of M.O.Ts for caravans and trailers ,i can't see anything changing !!
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I completely agree triky, my Car-a-tow system also allowed towed car to be reversed , did it numerous times without the brakes of the car locking on ? Dont know exactly how it works ? But it did? Brakes worked fine when going forwards.
I couldnt afford the electronic system, all in my Car-a-tow system cost me 850 pounds., 650 for car to be fitted with a tow frame., and 200 for a nearly new A-frame off of E-bay. Yes, it was heavy to carry about but it was very robust and strong, no worries of it failing.
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,Thanks Ray.I found it to be a VERY good system,enabling even more touring into areas where a motor home might not go..I still use a "Smart" to do just that ,but carry it in the garage of the " Concorde" ,even find it quicker to get out and use ,than unhooking the 'A'frame etc !! 1
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Did 4500 miles with ours last summer through to Croatia. My top tips:-
1. Elec connection, loop this over the top of the tow bar instead of hanging underneath. Mine caught twice getting on and off ferries.
2. Check your sites out on Google maps and consider unhooking a couple of miles up the road in a supermarket and viva versa when leaving - but you'll know more about access at that point.
3. The car boot is useful for dirty washing!!!!
4. Reversing, I simply locked the steering and disconnected the brake. Reversing around a 90 degree corner isn't to be tackled regularly as I am sure this is going to put a lot of stress on the car ball joints.
5. Be careful pulling away from toll gates especially when the customs officers think the car isn't attached!! Nearly killed at least 2!!!
6. I gave up trying to explain the car behind was ours and I needed to pay extra, I just smiled and drove away it was far easier and cheaper - I did try to be honest!!!!!
7. Quick stops I simply left the frame attached to the car and trundled to the pitch driving the car slowly - with cocky wheel of course.
8 And finally, 3 times getting off a ferry, people were determined not to let the mini (attached) in the queue... one particular woman was determined and drove her 4x4 into the side of the ferry as a result!
9. Don't forget to take the ignition key out when parking up, not that a thief would get very far!!
It sounds like a lot of drama but actually it wasn't. Really easy and we benefited greatly from having the flexibility. Used @ 10% extra fuel but a remap on the motorhome equalised this.
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We have an over run braking A frame. We did initially take it to europe we had 4 successful trips, then we got stopped in German and Belgium. Now we don't take it, it not worth the hassle. The bit of paper they give you means nothing to the european police, they are not interested. Lutz (where is he) explained it all many a time, the fact is they are illegal in europe end of.
We have tried reversing with our A frame but as explained with over run it just does not work, the minute the towing head compresses the brakes come on.
We now only use the A frame in the UK when abroad we either take the trike on a trailer or we just take the ebikes. Less stress more enjoyable holiday.
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It's important to make a note here about some cars and being towed. Some have restricted speeds when towed to avoid damage to gearboxes etc. This is mainly for automatic and electric vehicles, but some manual cars also specify maximum towing speeds or durations. This is all listed in the car manual.
It's also important to make sure that all of your insurance companies cover the car, the towing frame, the motor home and the combination of the three.
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We have a new braked A frame and will be using for the first time (in the UK) in a few weeks time. We had a few practices at putting it in and off but are making a fist of lining up the car with the towbar. Does anyone have some useful tips about how we go about it, we have given our neighbours hours of fun watching us struggling!
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A reversing camera helps enormously !!1
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Surely its not much of a problem with two of you, is it? Develop a series of hand signals and ensure the person at the back knows when he/she can be seen in your mirrors. I guess you've never had a caravan........
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I've only ever seen the towed car being driven to the back of the motorhome, usually she drives the car & he holds the A frame and gives direction ...... both can clearly see each other. I'd have thought that reversing the motorhome to the car with one holding the A frame & shouting directions to someone 15/20 feet away above the noise of a diseasal engine .... I SAID ...
would be hard work.I suppose though that he would have trust her not to run him over while driving to the back of the motorhome
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>Here is< my tip. It works well with the hitches that have a catch to keep them open until they drop on. For hitches that have no catch cut a piece of wood to size to jam open the hitch which you then remove when the hitch has dropped onto the ball.
peedee
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Returning to the original post, there is no piece of legislation anywhere, whether in the UK or on the Continent, that even mentions A-frames. For lack of legislation one can say that they are tolerated in the UK, but on the Continent the unit, car plus A-frame, is treated as a trailer and it must therefore fulfil all requirements that apply to a trailer and this includes whole vehicle type approval. This is something no A-frame can comply with, hence the illegality on the Continent.
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There is a production of an "A" frame that mirrors the one marketed by "car a tow" of Poole. !! !! One for them & one for us ?.?? 
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That doesn't mean that they are legal, though. There are lots of things offered on the market that are sold to the unsuspecting just to make a quick buck. If they made it to Spain towing an A-frame, they were lucky - especially in Spain! It seems that on the whole they are tolerated in France, but they are still not legal..
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Clever! Might give that a go instead of the jockey wheel as 1 less item to carry... any risk of bending/damaging the cross member?
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and still not illegal, but lets not reopen that discussion which has been done to death. Just balancing the facts.
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I'm afraid so. So long as there are no provisions in any legislation for A-frames, towing with an A-frame will be considered on the Continent as being the same as towing a trailer and therefore the combination car + A-frame must fulfil all requirements that apply to trailers, which they undoubtedly don't and unlike in the UK there is no such thing as the law of precedent which could help out.
For want of any specific legislation the analogy A-frame/trailer isn't taken for granted in the UK, so that leaves A-frames in a grey area of being neither legal nor illegal. By law they simply don't exist.
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Ah sorry I meant the cross member on the car as it is supporting quite a bit of weight at a very shallow angle - if you get what I mean?
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Well I never had a problem with a Car-A-Tow Frame fitted to two cars and that is one if not the heaviest frames on the market. Currently I have a Towbars 2 Tow frame and again I have not had a problem. The latter is a much lighter frame and it is supported at three points by the piece of rope. FYI the downward force of the Car-A-Tow frame on the tow ball was 10Kgms, I haven't measured that of the Towbar 2 Tow but being lighter it will be much less.
peedee
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Hi
Only today joined a queue of traffic on the road between Torrevieja and Quesada and in front of us was a Motorhome from the UK towing a car on a A=Frame. The queue was instigated by the local Guardia Civil Traffico road block and when the Motorhome got to them they just waved it through with no fine/uncoupling.
Phill
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