Payloads
I'll begin by admitting that in raising the issue that follows I am, to some extent acknowledging some degree of failure on my part so, having fronted-up to that, here goes.
Two years ago, we swapped our Bailey Olympus for a Bailey Vigo series 3 and have, until recently been very happy with it. In 2016, we visited Belgium, Switzerland, Italy and Germany during a six week tour, then Shropshire and Somerset, and finally South Wales so it covered a fair mileage. In October, I put it into the dealer for a service only to be told that it had a `broken axle'. This was a surprise as a friend with an identical caravan had the same problem a few months earlier. I understand from my dealer that the term `broken axle' is not technically correct as the actual problem is with a failure of an arm which goes into a rubber bush.
My enquiries suggest that this problem has arisen with a number of caravans with the current Al-Ko chassis and there have previously been threads on this website about this. The issue which I wish to raise is that of payloads. Bailey are repairing my caravan (as they did my friend's) as a matter of `goodwill', but we have both been told that we have overloaded our caravans. When we bought the Vigo, I assumed that its payload would be similar to that of the Olympus because they are both Bailey AluTech of similar dimensions but I now discover that the payload of the Vigo is 25% less than that of the Olympus. The Vigo's payload is 154kg (almost identical to similar Swift or Coachman vans) but this reduces to 100kg if you have a motor mover and leisure battery (ie. equivalent to 4 or 5 suitcases of the size accepted by airlines). This seems totally inadequate for a caravan which may be take away for a number of weeks at a time, especially when the weight of a second gas cylinder must also be deducted from the payload. We are lured into choosing caravans by vast arrays of cupboards, under-bed storage and floor-to-ceiling fridges but the effectively told we have to put everything in the car to travel. According to an article in `another camping and caravanning magazine' this month, the drive for lightness is to make caravans towable by cars which are also increasingly being made lighter but the reality is that, in my view, caravans seem to be in danger of becoming increasingly unfit for purpose.
For myself, I will have to evaluate for next season whether we can realistically keep within the payload for our caravan without constantly swapping stuff between the car and the caravan (we gave up camping to get away from that) or whether we must start looking for another caravan. I can't help but feel that we are being taken for a ride, even though you can truthfully say that I have been party to my problem.
Comments
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I have seen a couple of other reports of this on the internet and a full search of the various forums might throw up a few more. From what I have seen there have been a few instances of this and it was suggested there was a problem with some of these axles.
Not sure if yours is a model that can be upgraded to a higher MTPLM without modification but if it can the axle would only be overloaded if you exceeded the upgraded figure.
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I've also read of similar problem and I know of someone who is awaiting his caravan to go in to have its axle changed. It seems strange to me the each report I have seen involves a Bailey van. The Alko axle must be an almost a universal component so why would it be Bailey's affected?
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The lesson here seems to be check your loading capacity which is clear on the plate. Things like the mover are very heavy as is the awning. My Bailey Ranger GT60 Series 6 has a very generous loading capacity (It is in store at moment but think it is in excess of 200kgs and we are only a couple). Awning goes in car when we are travelling.
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Its so easy to over load the van when you consider that a mover 35 k 110 leisure battery 25 k and one plastic lightweight 10 k gas bottle 15 k that's half your allowance gone, and who hasn't got a few folding chairs a well stocked canned food pantry, hook up cable, aquar rolls and waste...Frightening innit..
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ive mentioned (inadequate) payloads in many threads, here is another example of an owner without any real idea about what his payload (around 150kg) actually means....
caravans have paltry payloads but can often be offset by (over)loading the car.
there are also a few on CT who run MH at 3500 kg and (from the models they have and the 'stuff' put in them) Ill wager a fair wad that they are running illegally, being either over weigjt on total or most certainly on the rear axle.
when advice is given to weigh the van, it is usually belittled/ignored.
the Bailey/Al-Ko chassis failures is a seperate issue....like Boff, i have only heard of Baileys with this problem, and certainly not on any MHs.
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Just to add a couple of further points.
1. My caravan is currently at Bailey's factory and contains only what we have left in for the winter: two lightweight chairs and a lightweight table; a lightweight rotary clothes line; a millenco leveller; plates, cups cutlery, etc; saucepans and kettle; a second (empty) gas bottle; electricity cable; and a few odds and ends. No food, clothes or bedding yet Bailey tell me that it is already over its payload. I should add that I always carry the awning, water and waste water containers and the elecricty cable in the car when towing.
2. The January Club magazine contains a review of the Bailey Brind-Easy (basically the same as my Unicorn and with the same payload). The article praises the generous storage space including under the bed, the `outstanding' storage space in the kitchen, and the `abundance' of storage in the washroom. Nowhere does it mention that you cannot make much use of these spaces whilst towing.
Yes, people are quite correct in saying that we should weigh our caravans and I now shall, but that doesn't invalidate my basic point which is that we now find ourselves buying caravans too delicate to fulfil our purpose and the manufacturers (and dare I say the Club) are making storage space a selling-point when in practice this is an illusion.
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Comparing quoted payloads with older vans is misleading as the ground rules the makers had to abide by have changed.
I agree with the sentiment that UK vans, and no doubt some foreign ones have what really is ridiculously low user payloads; this is well to the fore why we have and still have a Hymer. The present one is just under 300 kgs the previous was 330kgs and the German rating includes the battery in the MIRO not the user payload. I understand at the recent re assessment of MIRO inclusions the UK's NCC fought and got the battery out of the MIRO, an unbelievable "slight of hand" if considering the number of owners vans "in running order" that have left the battery out.
I know there is a push for lower weights but let that be real, not by designing unworkable caravans. Some of us change our clothes, eat off crocks with cutlery and cook on the provided hob, we also want bedding on the bed.
When a family of 5 fly off on holiday they can take a 100kgs, but are only taking the clothes element of the above list with them, not the rest.
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Comparing quoted payloads with older vans is misleading as the ground rules the makers had to abide by have changed.
I agree with the sentiment that UK vans, and no doubt some foreign ones have what really is ridiculously low user payloads; this is well to the fore why we have and still have a Hymer. The present one is just under 300 kgs the previous was 330kgs and the German rating includes the battery in the MIRO not the user payload. I understand at the recent re assessment of MIRO inclusions the UK's NCC fought and got the battery out of the MIRO, an unbelievable "slight of hand" if considering the number of owners vans "in running order" that have left the battery out.
I know there is a push for lower weights but let that be real, not by designing unworkable caravans. Some of us change our clothes, eat off crocks with cutlery and cook on the provided hob, we also want bedding on the bed.
When a family of 5 fly off on holiday they can take a 100kgs, but are only taking the clothes element of the above list with them, not the rest.
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It appears that the caravan industry is not serving it's customers interests very well. As a newcomer I am well aware of the load limitations of my 'van, unfortunately my wife refuses to acknowledge the problem.
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Motormover, spare wheel, battery and gas bottle are all virtually essential items and will swallow up 100Kg before you even think about anything else and all of the above should be considered part of the MIRO. The big question is how much have you got left after that lot? Not enough is almost certainly the answer in 99% of cases.
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Another point that adds to the concerns and needs looking at is that some makers allow themselves a plus and minus tolerance on the quoted MIRO; not all these days thankfully some don't have the +.
However, there is no such + tolerance on the axle rating or plated MTPLM so a plus MIRO tolerance can bite into the actual payload.
Say the maker quotes just +/- 2% on a MIRO of 1500kgs, that's another 30 kgs of that 150 odd kgs, a massive 20% off it, gone before the van leaves the factory. And when looking 10 years ago some were giving themselves more than 2%.
It is a minefield for those not savvy.
I had written into my last contract agreed weights so the actual payload was not less than Xkgs, requiring the van to be weighed on load cells. It was way out the wrong way, so the MTPLM was up rated to a mutually acceptable value but still below the contracted figure.
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I believe that the allowable tolerance of the miro is+/- 5% which means the 1500kg nominal weight could be 75kg heavier that effectively half a typical payload.
The fact that a battery is not included is in my opinion a disgrace. A modern caravan British caravan,is unusable without a battery therefore it should be included. To be fair an allowance for gas is now included in the miro calculation. But I can see where the actual weight is specified, a lot of manufacturers state in the small print of their brouchure state that is included but not what weight. Lunar last year as an exception quoted 7kg iirc which isn't much.
It would make sense from the consumers point of view for each new caravan to be supplied with an individual weight certificate. But that's not going to happen.
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The obvious solution is for manufacturers to guarantee that the quoted payload is the minimum one would expect. Whilst it would let you know exactly what you were getting it still doesn't address the inadequacy of them.
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...or for dealers to weigh the caravan/MH for the customer as part of the preliminary discussions....weighing pads are relatively cheap for a dealer to have available.
FYI, +/- 5% on a 3000kg MIRO MH is 150kg....thats a hefty chunk to lose off (say) a 300-500kg payload, especially when MIRO now (conveniently) is bereft of any water in the fresh tank, and youll need to put your OH somewhere......so, thats another 175kg lost before you actually put anything in it.....not good if you only started with 300kg.. .you're already over weight.....
not only that, there is no allowance for any of those lovely 'eaxtras/packs' that are sooooo attractive.....or solar panels, or sat systems.....even TV installed by the customer will do damage to payload.
our van had around 300kg of packs/extras on it.....so easy to tick the box....., so difficult to manage payload.....
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As I understand it. There is a formula for minimum payload and it is also an eu regulation.
It is 10L+10N+30kg where L is the length in meters of body and N is the number of berths. So for example if there was 5m, 4 berth caravan the minimum payload is 50+40+30= 120kg. If there was a caravan with a declared miro of 1300kg and a mptlm of 1420kg. If the actual miro weight was +5% the actual payload would only be 55kg. Therefore would the caravan still be compliant?
Maybe the caravan club could comment?
Only joking of course, I've got more chance of being elected next Pope than CC getting involved.
Back to the OP. The maximum axle load must assume that load is equally distributed across it. Presumably if all the weight is placed on one side Then if the axle wheels are weighed then if it could be within the total load but if you weigh each wheel individually perhaps one side could be grossly overloaded.
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Boff: your last point is interesting. The Bailey Unicorn has, over the offside wheel, gas locker, kitchen unit with storage for food and cooking utensils, cooker and microwave. I asked Bailey whether there is a pattern of the axle failing on the offside but they claim not. I remain sceptical.
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If it's any consolation. But I have thinking about the weight distribution of our van and it is probably worse Like yours it is a single axle transverse bed Unlike yours it has both the kitchen including the fridge and the bed on the same (near) side. I am going to be quite paranoid now
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Seems to me the manufactures are producing vans not fit for purpose, how do we get representation for the consumer, even the CC don't help. Its all about selling the product at any cost, sooner or later the consumer will vote with its pocket and cease to buy, where will the industry be then, like all the rest shut down. But why we keep buying and not challenging it will still plod on
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By looking further than the décor and style when seeking to buy, look in detail at the weight plate and the specification, including the tolerances and be prepared to simply walk away from those not selling workable vans.
I do feel too many of us only look at what we want to, not the fundamentals that we need to and are seduced by the aesthetics of the package. As a generalisation, the reaction we get from sales people indicates we want information they are rarely if ever asked to provide.Sadly, that has precluded buying UK made vans and will continue till there is a mindset change in the “industry” to give the engineering fundamentals due importance. Not to suggest here all the continentals get it "right"!
I live in hope as I would far rather spend here.
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I always assumed that the payload quoted related only to the amount of wine which could be carried. Oh dear. :-)
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Not capable of putting a sticker on!
After reading discussions on here about payload and warranty issues, I decided that as I had totally emptied the caravan out for its service, I would weight all those essentials that I believe are required for my caravaning enjoyment. I also researched the weights of the addition bits and bobs like the motor mover, on board tank and levelling system that have been installed on my Bailey Valencia. And I didn't forget the battery, before some kind person reminds me.
Well the bailey has a stated payload of 154 and with all of my goodies( not accounting for food that I load the fridge up with before I set off) came in at 189kg. 😕
I do carry the awning and other bulking items in the tugger!
Anyway, a quick look on the bailey website and a quick click of a button and I was the proud expectant owner of a upgrade kit, raising the payload to 211kg- sorted🙂
Now ten days later the postman has delivered the upgrade kit to make me legal, which should keep any weight inspecting authorities happy -not forgetting Bailey/Alko, should I suffer any axle problems that seem to be common. And more importantly give peace of mind.
On opening the large box, I had a sticker embossed with the new weights with the word upgrade clearly shown. Certificate of compliance. And copy of invoice.On the bottom of the invoice marked in red was the instruction. To maintain your warranty cover, these items must be fitted by an approved Bailey retailer or service centre.
Really? Not being one to belittle the skills of a dealer or any tradesperson, I'm sure that putting a sticker on the side of my caravan won't be cause for breach of warranty🤔
And yes, I was brave enough to do it unsupervised!
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Joking aside, it's in its third year now and what with some of the comments on warranty issues, I guess that I would be paying for it myself anyway. Plus with the timescales involved, I wouldn't want to lose it for such a ridiculous period, (as some have on here) only to find that they won't pay anyway.
This pastime is about enjoying it, not worrying about it.
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Hi JBV66, I just logged on and searched it.
I've just looked and I can see the Pegasus Genoa max upgrade kits on there.
Just type it in and flick through. I saw them on the second page.
I hope this helps
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Link Beneath
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Hi Kentman, what dealer do you use, out of interest?
The Unicorn Vigo 3 upgrade is available part number 1190226. Sorry I don't know how to do the link , so maybe if someone who can is looking in he will be able to post it on for you. Other that that just log into the Bailey website and search it
The plate only gives you an additional allowance of 57kg, and @ £60 you have to decide if it's worth it. In reality it isn't any form of modification, just a weight plate sticker and the associated paperwork.
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