Gas appliances - Carbon monoxide and confusion
HI folks, this is just about general puzzlement!
If you look online there are lots of warnings about the danger of carbon monoxide poisoning etc etc, and a good thing too..... but you get statements like this from RoSPA "Never take a gas stove, light or heater into a tent, caravan or cabin."
Errrr, what about the gas "hob" that's already in our caravan? Is that OK because I didn't take it in there! 
Is there some secret technical difference between the gas hob in the 'van and a portable gas stove (hob) such as someone might take camping.
What's the difference between these devices and a gas hob at home?
OK, we have have a carbon monoxide monitor and detector stickers in the van, which we put there, and I'll be concerned if we don't have nice blue flames from the burners, but I'd like to know why it seems that using the gas hob in a van is OK, whilst using
a gas stove in a tent is advertised as almost certain death!
Tom
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Is it bringing in an extra cylinder that is a danger? Interesting question as I have a portable heater with disposable cannister for the awning occasionally - but was told NOT to take it in the caravan when my heating failed a few months ago. Sold by Go
Outdoors I am sure campers must take them inside? I too have both types of alarm.0 -
As far as I am aware the type of appliances that are considered a risk are those that don't completely, or at least efficiently burn the gas. See below.
Carbon monoxide (CO) is a colourless, odourless, tasteless, poisonous gas produced by incomplete burning of carbon-based fuels,
There are signs that you can look out for which indicate incomplete combustion is occurring and may result in the production of CO:
- yellow or orange rather than blue flames (except fuel effect fires or flueless appliances which display this colour flame)
- soot or yellow/brown staining around or on appliances
0 - yellow or orange rather than blue flames (except fuel effect fires or flueless appliances which display this colour flame)
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Yes an interesting question for which I do not know the answer but I assume a tent is a much more confined space and would not be so well ventilated with it closed up and any fumes would build up much more quickly than in a larger ventilated space where what might be produced would dissipate just as quickly. i.e the risks are higher in a tent?
I too have both alarms which I put in myself.
peedee
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(Apart from the usual 'cover ourselves against everything' ......)
I think the reasoning is that if it is a permanantly installed appliance (like a heater/cooker/fridge) then it SHOULD have been installed with due regard to ventilation, any flue requirements, etc. Likewise the installation of appropriate alarms/extinguishers/escape
routes/whatever. For a portable appliance none of this is within the control of the manufacturer/supplier........hence play safe.0 -
In a modern caravan the potential problem is certainly the hob and oven. Having said that provided it burns the gas efficiently then very little carbon monoxide is produced and given the ventilation there should be no danger. SteveL has noted what to look
out for. All other appliances should be vented externally.On older caravans the other appliances may not be externally vented but doubtful they will be a problem but be sure they are correctly maintained and buy the alarm.
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As I understand it, the burning of fossil fuels will create, in addtion to water, carbon monoxide and also carbon dioxide. The flame needs oxygen to burn efficiently, if an appliance is not burning correctly or incompletely the flame produces less carbon dioxide and more carbon monoxide. Any restriction of available oxygen may be as the appliance is defective or there is a smaller volume of oxygen available in the tent, hence caravans and MH' being fitted with alarms but generally they have a bigger volume of available air and the flames are easily seen. I am not a chemist but this is my understanding.
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I don't know the technical aspects of this but I would suggest that it's something we all ought to take into account.
My experience was first-hand in that one night, shopping in the supermarket with my daughter in law to be, I got back to the car to see a woman in the next car sobbing her heart out. I knocked on her window, and she opened the door. I asked if she was OK, and she said 'No' and sobbed. I hugged her through the door, and then asked if she wanted to talk. She said that she'd seen us shopping and that Jenny, my daughter in law to be, looked exactly like her daughter Hazel.
Hazel, had died in a tragic accident on a campsite in Norfolk (well publised at the time) when she and her fiance took a cooling barbecue into their tent to prevent it being stolen. Her daughter died, and her fiance was terribly ill for a very long time (Story here). He almost lost an arm because of lack of oxygen to his tissues.
I chatted to her for about half an hour, whilst she stopped sobbing and became calm again. I promised her that if Carbon Monoxide ever came up in conversations about camping I would mention her experience, so that's what I'm doing.
Be aware - Carbon Monoxide can kill - quietly and quickly. Get a Carbon Monoxide alarm, use it whenever, and whatever you're camping in, and replace the battery! Don't be complacent and don't treat it lightly!
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I understand that charcoal produces large quantities of CO because as the blocks of charcaol burn they burn internally, and are coated by the ash which restricts the supply of oxygen available to the burning process. It is that defficiency and the confined space which allows CO levels to build quickly.
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Thanks for interesting replies folks. Good to see there's a lot of awarenes about this, though one sometimes wonders how our parents survived!
I think we're all agreed a barbecue in any sort of enclosed space is a no-no.
It does puzzle me though that the safety warnings seem so out of kilter with gas burners in a caravan...
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I wonder if all caravans are like ours, which was built for the Dutch market, and has a sticker on the gas hob which says 'Never use without adquate ventilation' (or something similar - I can't pop out to read it because it's stored in France).
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Appliances in caravans and motorhomes are designed for that purpose and if properly maintained will burn gas efficiently and have appropriate ventilation. We're also well aware of the dangers and act responsibly. RoSPA cannot be sure people who use portable
gas appliances have the same level of risk awareness and knowledge of their appliance so better to say '"Don't do it".0 -
I guess that's the key to it Aspenshaw, the installer of a gas hob in a 'van is defining, within reason, the circumstances in which it will be used. The maker/seller of a "portable appliance" has no idea what will happen to it - someone may use it in a tightly
zipped up inner tent!The difference is the circumstances, not the appliance.
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