One in a million electrical faults
At some time, we must all of heard about a vehicle electrical fault that appears to be a "One in a million fault" the sort of fault which garages/dealers are unable to find and fully cure. In many cases they only manage to temporary cure and the fault returns. During my time I have undertaken a few such faults and thus far managed to fully diagnose them, maybe more luck than judgement to say the least. Some members who are very electrically minded may find my recent such event quite interesting especially when I explain the cause of the fault.
A motorcyclist had a charging problem with his motorcycle, the alternator (3 phase, delta windings, permanent magnet type) was undercharging but this was not a straightforward fault.
The motorcycle had been taken to several dealers for rectification of the fault, a new alternator stator, regulator/rectifier unit and motorcycle wiring harness had been fitted by these dealers and the owner was told that the fault was cured upon collecting the motorcycle on each occasion, but each time a few days later the battery would run down yet again.
The owner was recomended to bring the motorcycle to myself for diagnoses of the fault. Under the circumstances I felt sorry for the owner and took the job on with no charge, i.e. parts only if used. Symptoms of the fault were as follows; At tickover, the alternator was balancing the electrical loadings with the headlight on and still showing a 3 amp charge. When the engine speed was increased the charging rate decreased (opposite to what should normally happen) and when the engine reaches 3000 RPM the alternators output totally terminates even though there is still a heavy electrical demand at this time.
I must admit, this one had me pulling my hair out but I applied one of my old time theories; "If there is a fault, there must be a cause, as there is a cause, it must be curable" in other words, in my book, there is no such thing as cannot be done or rectified.
After a long detailed investigation I found that the motorcycles electronic ignition unit (often reffered to as a CDI unit) was at fault. One could say; what has the motorcycles' electronic ignition unit got to do with the alternators output and regulation?
Well this is what was happening; The motorcycles' electronic ignition unit was functioning correctly as in allowing the engine to run and function correctly even electronically advancing and retarding the ignition between; 10° BTDC and 40° BTDC at 3000 RPM, but something had gone wrong electronically inside said unit and it was emitting electrical pulses into the motorcycles wiring harness which was effecting the alternators' electronically controlled regulator/rectifier unit causing it to totally shut down when the motorcycles engine was fully advanced at 3000 RMP.
An interesting one to say the least
Colin
Comments
-
Well done Colin , I take it your some kind of mechanic/ electrical engineer then
0 -
Wow I wish I understood what you were talking about . However congratulations on not being beaten, there's not many of our type left and on sorting it. I bet the owner really chuffed and I hope he offered you at least a drink on top of the parts.
0 -
Wow I wish I understood what you were talking about . However congratulations on not being beaten, there's not many of our type left and on sorting it. I bet the owner really chuffed and I hope he offered you at least a drink on top of the parts.
It's very good news for the pair of us as we have ended up very good friends from this event. The gentleman is of similar age group to myself and to cap it all he is a PC wizard and has already paid me back by sorting out a few PC problems. Everyone is a
wizard in something, we all have a skill (skills) in something and together we make a great team. Just look at Clubtogether, someone posts a problem and there is always someone who has the answer as there are some/many clever people on Clubtogether, but not
me, I'm just a jack of all trades and master at none who's main downfall is I cannot spell. PS, The good news with regard to the above electrical fault is that we managed to obtain a replacement CDI unit from a brackers yard for just only £40.0 -
Interestingly, my PC wizard friend has taught me a few PC tricks such as; How do we write these figures on a PC when there is no key on said PC's to write these figures with;
Example, Squared = ² , Cubed = ³ , Degrees = ° , Plus or minus = ± , just to show a few.
Press and hold down the "Alt" key, (using your mnemonic number keypad, to the right of your keypad) type in the following number codes and then release the "Alt" key, if this does not work, briefly press the "Number lock" key and try again, this should now work.
Number codes; ² = 0178, ³ = 0179, ° = 0176, ± = 0177.
As said just to mention a few.
Don't know if this works with Apple!
Colin
0 -
but not me, I'm just a jack of all trades and master at none who's main downfall is I cannot spell.
See what I mean; Breakers yard (brackers yard) and Referred to (reffered to) God knows what other members think of me, probably best I don't know lol. The trouble is once posted, after 10 minutes I can not correct.
0 -
Someone thinking the way i do if there is a fault intermittent or not there must be a cause, i used to lecture in automotive diagnostics and found the biggest error most techs made was trying to cure the symptom without first identifying the cause. That
and not looking at all the info available before making a diagnosis unlike yourself
And dont worry about the spelling mine's the same If only someone knew how to fix it??
0 -
Spelling is fluid . Autocue correct can be a nightmare! So long as we are unable to get the gist of a post it isn't an issue. I can check and check on screen and not spot an error, print it and they LEAP out at me
Many thanks Bakers2 for your reassurance, I feel a little better now, your words are most kind.
PS, many thanks too for your kind words jeffcc,
Colin
0 -
Interesting stuff indeed.
What was the make and model of the bike in question ?
Regulator / rectifier is a recurrent problem on certain Honda models. They fail in two different ways - rectifier diodes blow, battery goes flat due to no charge. Regulator part fails and battery overcharges and melts. If really unlucky, taking out other
electronics, including CDI, along the way. I wonder if this bike had previously had a regulator fail ?I must admit to never having heard or read about the CDI affecting charging in this way. I replaced the reg rec on my Honda 600 ( which has CDI ignition ) with a larger Shindengen mosfet unit off a Yamaha. I also renewed the wiring from the alternator to
the reg rec, and thence to the battery, as the main alternator connector was corroded and burned.Similar story on my CB175, except on that bike I used a spare CB600 reg rec, alnong with renewing the wiring. New batteries (Motobatt AGM) on both bikes), problems solved.
As I said, the issue of CDI involvement is a new one on me, I've never read about this in the bike forums and magazines.
0 -
At some time, we must all of heard about a vehicle electrical fault that appears to be a "One in a million fault" the sort of fault which garages/dealers are unable to find and fully cure. In many cases they only manage to temporary cure and the fault returns.
During my time I have undertaken a few such faults and thus far managed to fully diagnose them, maybe more luck than judgement to say the least. Some members who are very electrically minded may find my recent such event quite interesting especially when I
explain the cause of the fault.A motorcyclist had a charging problem with his motorcycle, the alternator (3 phase, delta windings, permanent magnet type) was undercharging but this was not a straightforward fault.
The motorcycle had been taken to several dealers for rectification of the fault, a new alternator stator, regulator/rectifier unit and motorcycle wiring harness had been fitted by these dealers and the owner was told that the fault was cured upon collecting
the motorcycle on each occasion, but each time a few days later the battery would run down yet again.The owner was recomended to bring the motorcycle to myself for diagnoses of the fault. Under the circumstances I felt sorry for the owner and took the job on with no charge, i.e. parts only if used. Symptoms of the fault were as follows; At tickover, the
alternator was balancing the electrical loadings with the headlight on and still showing a 3 amp charge. When the engine speed was increased the charging rate decreased (opposite to what should normally happen) and when the engine reaches 3000 RPM the alternators
output totally terminates even though there is still a heavy electrical demand at this time.I must admit, this one had me pulling my hair out but I applied one of my old time theories; "If there is a fault, there must be a cause, as there is a cause, it must be curable" in other words, in my book, there is no such thing as cannot be done or rectified.
After a long detailed investigation I found that the motorcycles electronic ignition unit (often reffered to as a CDI unit) was at fault. One could say; what has the motorcycles' electronic ignition unit got to do with the alternators output and regulation?
Well this is what was happening; The motorcycles' electronic ignition unit was functioning correctly as in allowing the engine to run and function correctly even electronically advancing and retarding the ignition between; 10° BTDC and 40° BTDC at 3000 RPM,
but something had gone wrong electronically inside said unit and it was emitting electrical pulses into the motorcycles wiring harness which was effecting the alternators' electronically controlled regulator/rectifier unit causing it to totally shut down when
the motorcycles engine was fully advanced at 3000 RMP.An interesting one to say the least
Colin
After "At some time...", my eyes start glazing
. Hope its not made into a film Colin0 -
Blimey Richard! A CB175? That's going back a bit. I used to have it's poor relation ie CD175, but that was about 35 yrs ago ;-)
I had a new one back in the early '70's, rebuilt this US imported one (started life as a CL175) a couple of winters ago.
0 -
The photo of the 175cc, there should be an Everoak peaked helmet on the seat.
My Bell open face ( jet ) helmet was on my head when I took that photo, closest thing I could find to the Stadium jet helmet I wore back in the day. Oddly enough, I did have an Everoak, but that one was an early full face.
These days, I keep my Arai full face for use on the 600.
0 -
At some time, we must all of heard about a vehicle electrical fault that appears to be a "One in a million fault" the sort of fault which garages/dealers are unable to find and fully cure. In many cases they only manage to temporary cure and the fault returns.
During my time I have undertaken a few such faults and thus far managed to fully diagnose them, maybe more luck than judgement to say the least. Some members who are very electrically minded may find my recent such event quite interesting especially when I
explain the cause of the fault.A motorcyclist had a charging problem with his motorcycle, the alternator (3 phase, delta windings, permanent magnet type) was undercharging but this was not a straightforward fault.
The motorcycle had been taken to several dealers for rectification of the fault, a new alternator stator, regulator/rectifier unit and motorcycle wiring harness had been fitted by these dealers and the owner was told that the fault was cured upon collecting
the motorcycle on each occasion, but each time a few days later the battery would run down yet again.The owner was recomended to bring the motorcycle to myself for diagnoses of the fault. Under the circumstances I felt sorry for the owner and took the job on with no charge, i.e. parts only if used. Symptoms of the fault were as follows; At tickover, the
alternator was balancing the electrical loadings with the headlight on and still showing a 3 amp charge. When the engine speed was increased the charging rate decreased (opposite to what should normally happen) and when the engine reaches 3000 RPM the alternators
output totally terminates even though there is still a heavy electrical demand at this time.I must admit, this one had me pulling my hair out but I applied one of my old time theories; "If there is a fault, there must be a cause, as there is a cause, it must be curable" in other words, in my book, there is no such thing as cannot be done or rectified.
After a long detailed investigation I found that the motorcycles electronic ignition unit (often reffered to as a CDI unit) was at fault. One could say; what has the motorcycles' electronic ignition unit got to do with the alternators output and regulation?
Well this is what was happening; The motorcycles' electronic ignition unit was functioning correctly as in allowing the engine to run and function correctly even electronically advancing and retarding the ignition between; 10° BTDC and 40° BTDC at 3000 RPM,
but something had gone wrong electronically inside said unit and it was emitting electrical pulses into the motorcycles wiring harness which was effecting the alternators' electronically controlled regulator/rectifier unit causing it to totally shut down when
the motorcycles engine was fully advanced at 3000 RMP.An interesting one to say the least
Colin
After "At some time...", my eyes start glazing
. Hope its not made into a film Colin"The Art of Taxidermy springs to mind"
0 -
At some time, we must all of heard about a vehicle electrical fault that appears to be a "One in a million fault" the sort of fault which garages/dealers are unable to find and fully cure. In many cases they only manage to temporary cure and the fault returns.
During my time I have undertaken a few such faults and thus far managed to fully diagnose them, maybe more luck than judgement to say the least. Some members who are very electrically minded may find my recent such event quite interesting especially when I
explain the cause of the fault.A motorcyclist had a charging problem with his motorcycle, the alternator (3 phase, delta windings, permanent magnet type) was undercharging but this was not a straightforward fault.
The motorcycle had been taken to several dealers for rectification of the fault, a new alternator stator, regulator/rectifier unit and motorcycle wiring harness had been fitted by these dealers and the owner was told that the fault was cured upon collecting
the motorcycle on each occasion, but each time a few days later the battery would run down yet again.The owner was recomended to bring the motorcycle to myself for diagnoses of the fault. Under the circumstances I felt sorry for the owner and took the job on with no charge, i.e. parts only if used. Symptoms of the fault were as follows; At tickover, the
alternator was balancing the electrical loadings with the headlight on and still showing a 3 amp charge. When the engine speed was increased the charging rate decreased (opposite to what should normally happen) and when the engine reaches 3000 RPM the alternators
output totally terminates even though there is still a heavy electrical demand at this time.I must admit, this one had me pulling my hair out but I applied one of my old time theories; "If there is a fault, there must be a cause, as there is a cause, it must be curable" in other words, in my book, there is no such thing as cannot be done or rectified.
After a long detailed investigation I found that the motorcycles electronic ignition unit (often reffered to as a CDI unit) was at fault. One could say; what has the motorcycles' electronic ignition unit got to do with the alternators output and regulation?
Well this is what was happening; The motorcycles' electronic ignition unit was functioning correctly as in allowing the engine to run and function correctly even electronically advancing and retarding the ignition between; 10° BTDC and 40° BTDC at 3000 RPM,
but something had gone wrong electronically inside said unit and it was emitting electrical pulses into the motorcycles wiring harness which was effecting the alternators' electronically controlled regulator/rectifier unit causing it to totally shut down when
the motorcycles engine was fully advanced at 3000 RMP.An interesting one to say the least
Colin
After "At some time...", my eyes start glazing
. Hope its not made into a film Colin"The Art of Taxidermy springs to mind"
Wow just read that post . I love your comment "Cannot be done or rectified . reminds me of my early days when my mentor said "Theres no such word as Cant " stuck with me ever since . As to spotting that fault as the CDI unit take my hat off to that one
. On a more simper fault as that one but in reverse . A 760 vovlo battery empty , and charging I think ,if I remember at 16 volts (Machine sensed alternator ) new battery and alternator fitted in warranty still charging at 16 volts ,Doh !!!! by chance,
disconected a temp sensor that was fitted under the battery, charging rectified . Think they stopped fitting them after that and I think they (Volvo ) issued a technical buletin about it ,I did feel a bit smug about that one . I'll look forward to reading
more of your post in the future . And Ignore the others when you write a long explanation . Best regards Martin0 -
Blimey Richard! A CB175? That's going back a bit. I used to have it's poor relation ie CD175, but that was about 35 yrs ago ;-)
I had a new one back in the early '70's, rebuilt this US imported one (started life as a CL175) a couple of winters ago.
DeJaVu My First bike was also a CD 175 Arrived in a box in bits on my 16th birthday with a single note from Dad Well this was what you asked for!!!
0 -
Someone thinking the way i do if there is a fault intermittent or not there must be a cause, i used to lecture in automotive diagnostics and found the biggest error most techs made was trying to cure the symptom without first identifying the cause. That
and not looking at all the info available before making a diagnosis unlike yourselfAnd dont worry about the spelling mine's the same If only someone knew how to fix it??
In my Job as worshop controller to save time i used to go ut with the custmoer and first get the exact details of what there fault ,read compaint ,was . And listen to them .As you said an intermiment fault is there its just intermitent It is easier when
you know the car you can make calculated guess to look in one directionFirst job over I could then give really specific areas or details of the fault to the mechanic or make the desicion to give it our diagnostic mechanic ,in them days before they became called technicians . without a waffled story
. MY good mate , still moans at me when he tells me a complex fault and I reply ...... "What"..... so let me get this straight ..... its doing such and such ! he then says " Dont you listen " ......
Water off a ducks back as thery say !
0 -
Blimey Richard! A CB175? That's going back a bit. I used to have it's poor relation ie CD175, but that was about 35 yrs ago ;-)
I had a new one back in the early '70's, rebuilt this US imported one (started life as a CL175) a couple of winters ago.
DeJaVu My First bike was also a CD 175 Arrived in a box in bits on my 16th birthday with a single note from Dad Well this was what you asked for!!!
Blimey !!!!!!!!!!!!! my first bike was a CB72
0 -
Many moons ago when i was in the road transport section at work i had a lighting fault on an artic tractor unit.All was ok until we tried the brake lights and then it was like strobe lighting all over the vehicle.After a coupe of hours the fault was traced to a brake light bulb.The bulb was a stop/tail bulb and the stop element had broken and fallen across the side light element
joining both circuits together which causes all sorts of problems.v9
0 -
Yes Peter, I can understand how such a fault like that can happen from a bulb filiment fault. It's one of the first things I check these days after checking fuses of corse. Earlier within this discussion with regard the said caravans fault, I mentioned there was a possibility it could be something simple like a shorting bulb filiment. In the gentlemans case it appeared to be something entirely different.
Colin
0 -
Many moons ago when i was in the road transport section at work i had a lighting fault on an artic tractor unit.All was ok until we tried the brake lights and then it was like strobe lighting all over the vehicle.After a coupe of hours the fault was traced
to a brake light bulb.The bulb was a stop/tail bulb and the stop element had broken and fallen across the side light element joining both circuits together which causes all sorts of problems.v9
Those symtons were common when a customer put a single filament 21w bulb in stop/tail socket .
0
