The future for diesels
Comments
-
Milo, I understand what you are saying, but for many of us the problem is a bit nearer than for others.
We live on the outskirts of Bristol. The city is fairly heavily polluted, thanks to the City Council's stupid policy of closing up junctions and doing everything they can to slow up and discourage the motorist.
The Policy has backfired and Bristol now has one of the highest pollution levels, due to slow moving congested traffic. Now they want to charge an entrance fee for diesels!
We can only afford one car so to carry on caravanning we have to have a big diesel for our 1650kg van. That is almost certain to attract penalties in Bristol.
I guess I shouldn't have joined If I couldn't take a joke!
TF
0 -
It's not really true that there a not gasoline engines available the USA market is dominated by Petrol still. They may not be available in the U.K. or Europe but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Just had a quick look the LR D5 is available a petrol version it is about £2k more than the Diesel version, strangely you can buy a Diesel in the US but it is approximately $10k more than the petrol version.
0 -
Not that I needed convincing they are talking rubbish but I have just read in the paper more details about the proposed scrapage scheme. it stated that it could take up to 9000 Diesel's and 6000 Petrol's off the road.
How much effect will that have given the amount of vehicles on the roads in the UK.
0 -
I don't think it is a numbers game, hopefully, it is getting the worst offenders out of the worst polluted places?
Targeting a farmer in the wilds of Scotland doing a few k miles a year on a dilapidated early 2000s Jeep whilst it might be awfully polluting technology has no great impact on very many human's environment. A taxi of similar vintage plying business in a city centre will, and hopefully, that is the sort of target.
0 -
Given that it's been left to the councils to sort out, it'll be interesting to see what happens at the Dartford crossing. Dartford was recently named as one of the highest pollution hotspots, mainly due to the crossing and the concentration of slow /non moving traffic. I wonder if there will be an increase of the toll charges. Considering that any traffic wanting to cross from south to north of the country or north to south, has to use this or drive around London. I could see this becoming a heavy financial burden for many and a big cash-cow for others, on the back of poor planning and misguided advice.
0 -
Many/most cars in the polluted towns, cities and elsewhere have only one person aboard. Furthermore all the while it's considerably less expensive and far more convenient for a couple or a family to journey in their car few will use public transport.
I can get a flight to Marseille, Paris, Hamburg etc. for less than just my return ticket on the train from Brighton to London (50 miles/60 minutes - standing up in rush hour).
Parking charges don't seem to put people off: A day's parking in Brighton city centre is £25 and they're virtually full or completely full by 9.30 a.m. with commuters' cars. My son used to cycle the 12 miles to work in central Brighton every day but it became too dangerous with the cycle lanes obstructed with skips, parked cars and builders' trucks. It's fine for 'Green' Brighton to construct these laudable cycle lanes at great expense but there's no-one to enforce the infringers.
0 -
I'm sure that won't change, due to the pollution charges.
There will always be cars with only a driver in it. Many reasons for this. They live alone, no one that works near them actually works near them or they work different hours.
Life isn't fair at times, but should peoples Health suffer for others to benefit, just because they live in the area where others do not, but travel through?
Should they also bear the penalties of pollution i.e. Poor health, Charges or the expense of purchasing newer vehicles when the rest of the country doesn't?
i know that this will upset many, but instead of targeting the pollution black spots, set the same requirements over the whole country and cover all vehicles irrespective of age - have it done by the emissions!
Its about our children and their children's future health that is really at stake!
just targeting selective areas will not source the problem, just move it to another!
0 -
I can`t see Euro 5/6 engines being affected at the moment that will just be seen as a tax on driving. Town Centres will become deserted if they go too far with this. I agree with a long term policy taking older cars off the road but this country still has to make a living!
1 -
I understand and agree.
But I'm having a moment of dimness here - if all Euro 6 vehicles are the same, then I can't understand the difference in VED rates for them. How are some more polluting?
Also, will a Euro 5 driven only 5000 miles a year be creating more pollution than a Euro 6 that covers twice or three times that?
0 -
Euro ratings do not mean all engines give the same absolute figure but have to show that polutants are below a fixed percentage of the total fumes, so bigger engines with more exhaust fumes still produce more polutants than smaller engines in general.
0 -
And herein lies the inherent unfairness because the exhaust output for any particular vehicle also depends on how much it is used. 10,000 miles per year or 3,000 in the case of my car. How it is used (I was amazed how much fuel my car used in the warm-up phase compared to when the engine was warm) and the vast improvement when warm even in urban driving.
I think George Osborne's last budget changes aimed mainly at "Chelsea Tractors" were mainly populist but the law of unexpected consequences comes into effect.
As already mentioned though for cars batteries are the future and eventually this will apply to LCVs as well. I hope I will live long enough to see this.
0 -
"As already mentioned though for cars batteries are the future and eventually this will apply to LCVs as well. I hope I will live long enough to see this"
That might be the case but it is still a long way off. Considering that the first electric vehicle was produced in the mid 19th century and the very best available now have a range short of 300 miles.
0 -
I've heard it said ,that "the life of the batteries is about three years ,and to replace them (at todays prices) would be more than the car is worth !! !!
.0 -
Many thanks Wildwood for clearing that up for me
0 -
Just found a problem with the Kodiaq! Decided that the more powerful Petrol engined version was the one for me, and went to my local dealer to talk seriously . Only to find that he could only guarantee a fairly low bid on my ML because the earliest he could guarantee delivery on a new Kodiaq was September! Apparently they are selling too well and delivery has slipped!
So no deal! I want a high price for mine or no deal. It still looks like new and is running like a sewing machine. I'm not letting it go for chips!
TF
0 -
To qoute "tigerfish":
The cold hard facts are, that unless and until, the vehicle and engine manufacturers realise that there is simply no alternative to the 2.5-3litre Diesel, offering prodigious Torque at low engine revolutions.
That can be done via a version of hybrid technology using a smaller engine running pollution-wise optimally. Though unable itself to produce the stonking low end torque, the electric drives doing that from a combination of real time and battery derived electrical power.
Diesel electric trains have done so for decades and so have some ships.
There certainly is an alternative.
0 -
This type of technology is already on the roads in the bus industry. It's called a series system. The early type I worked on started out with a 1.8L Vauxhall common rail diesel engine that couldn't cope and lasted 50K tops, they were then converted to the 2.5 Ford common rail (Transit engine) which can just about cope. The vehicle had something like 32 Lead Acid batteries on board.
Series systems need both engine & motor to move the vehicle.
Parallel systems can move under either forms of power if one fails.
The technology still has a long way to go. The Volvo B9L bus chassis ( a parallel system) has, in the service scheduled, a Big end & Main bearing change ? this is the trade off in this case for having a hybrid with stop / start system. Like I said still a long way to go......
I know nothing about trains really, But as I understand the smallest, I think they were called DMU's, used a Leyland 680 engine laying on it side under the train and had to run all the time.
Interesting thread
1 -
And it's only a 2Ltr
0 -
It's also said that if car makers had put as much R&D investment into decent non-fossil fuel technology as they've persisted in putting into what we're all driving now, we'd have been way further ahead in electrical or other forms of moving vehicles round than we are. It's perfectly true that the massive existing infrastructure pushes us into continuing with the fossil fuels, but it's also very much in the interests of the powerful oil companies to keep it that way; there will come a point where we have to make the move away from it, and the sooner we invest more into this move, the less painful it'll be.
0 -
Hedgehurst! I completely agree, and the day that the motor industry can provide me with a pure electric or hybrid 4x4, which will tow my 1650 KG caravan over a 500 mile range without refuelling, I will buy one! NO! Hang on a minute, I am being unfair. My current 550 mile range is solo. So let's be really fair and say 375 miles range. But no hook up re charge, any car that I will accept must re charge itself like some do already, but cannot do it over any real range.
The industry must stop trying to use us as Guinea pigs, and offering cars like the Mitsubishi PHV, which simply cannot tow a heavy caravan, a long way, and then do it again the next day and the day after, like my 3 Litre V6 Turbo Diesel can do now. When they can do that, and keep on doing it, - job done! But its not done yet!
TF
0 -
There is a great deal more to it than the automotive industry pulling their finger out and investing in electric vehicle design.
Just think of the infrastructure that will be needed to generate and distribute the equivalent amount of energy about as electricity as we all consume now in the form of petrol and deisel fuel oil.
And I suspect we will want it dispensed to our homes, unlike being prepared to go to a fuel station to pick up in 30 seconds, 500 miles worth of energy? Not go out similarly to an "electricity fuel station" and sit about for as long as it takes to recharge or exchange energy packs.
I don't think many who push for these moves really have thought out the massive ramifications, the generating capacity investments and blight of the stations, the tearing up the streets to install the underground cabling etc etc.
At best there is going to be a move to inner city short distance electric powered vehicles, but I feel the mass change over from fossil or other liquid fuelled vehicles, to pure electrically powered, in all sectors is a way off.
1 -
"Any car that I will accept must re charge itself like some do already,"
Which ones do that, You have what is called regeneration when the car is slowing down and the motor becomes a generator to put something back in to the system. but you still need a charge from a supply or engine to keep the batteries topped up for normal use.
0 -
Milo, I would be the first to accept that I know very little about the new technology. I only know what they appear to be not capable of, i.e. the TOWING ability of my current 3 litre turbo diesel. And until they can do that, I'm simply not interested.
The nearest of the hybrid vehicles Ive tried recently was the new RAV4 which has a 2.5 Litre petrol engine which charges a bank of batteries beneath the rear seats and boot area. But not able to test its towing performance and no test of that yet published!
As I said, - The manufacturers will always claim the best for their products, but our needs in the market are so small that we do not feature in their planning. It will not until someone like Ford or Mercedes get around to producing a green version of their big delivery vans like the transit or Sprinter, will the sort of engine we need become available.
TF
0 -
I'm just waiting for a new Green version of the Traditional Landrover Discovery to be released (not the smaller version), and then wait a few years for me to be able to afford a used one. By the way, it still has to have the same towing capacity as the old Disco.
Do I stand more chance of seeing flying pigs......?
David
0 -
David, Apologies, but I think that you have got your Land Rovers muddled up. The New Discovery 5 was launched a while ago now and I have already seen several on the road ( The design makes them look a bit heavy at the rear).
I think that you meant the more traditional Land Rover Defender replacement due later on. Not sure what it will be called yet.
TF
0 -
When the taxation axe starts to fall though I would rather see higher fuel duty on diesel than an increase in VED. I'm happy to leave my big diesel car at home as much as possible but if I end up being stung with a big hike in VED I may as well get my moneys worth by driving it everywhere!
0
