Maintaining the 85% rule.
Within the next five years, legislation will force cars to lower their emissions significantly, and possibly diesels will start becoming extinct. Car manufacturers are developing many methods to meet those needs. However, as reducing car weight seems to
be a major contributor, how will this affect the towing rule? I recently bought a 2.0 litre diesel version of my car instead of the 1.7 petrol to achieve the 85% rule to get sufficient car weight.
Comments
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Yes I know but it is often called the 'rule'
But perpetuating that misinformation will just add to the problem your OP addresses.
The UK will just need to hoist onboard the reality that our continental cousins have adopted for years. That is not being confused into thinking there is this magic mass ratio, where despite other physical characteristics of the tow car and van , falling one side is good the other is not.
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It may be called a 'rule' but it isn't! Even the CC don't call it that, it is guidance from the days when adam was a lad and we had gas lighting. It is much more important to ensure the whole set up is well balanced with correct nose weight, tyre pressures
and so on. I defy anyone to say they can tell teh difference between 84% and 86% weight ratio...0 -
Of course it is not a "rule" it is a LAW. A law of physics. The one about how big a tail a dog can have before it takes over.
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It is guidance only. Most cars I ahve ahd had a towing limit of around 2000kg which I could legally use if I wanted. I guess so long as you take it steady that would be OK but not something I would have liked to have done. However if you think of HGV's
they tow well over the weight of the cab unit......0 -
Get the right set of circumstances coming together and even 85 percent won't be enough to a prevent a visit to A&E.
It is however a good starting figure. Not to go towards 90% but towards 80%
IMHO of course.
I'd challeange anyone to be able to tell the difference between the way an outfit handles at 90% compared with 85% or between 80% and 85%. The changes are so gradual that one would have to have a variance of at least 10% before one can detect anything, always assuming that all other criteria remain equal. And there's the rub. Because so many other factors determine the stability of an outfit, one can remain perfectly docile at 100% whereas another can be a pig to handle even at 70%, if something major else is wrong.
Personally I don't even bother to work out my weight ratio. I stick to what is legal and, more important, what I think I'm capable of handling safely, regardless of weight ratio.
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Not really arguing that Lutz.
Its what happens then that load is excited by outside forces that matters, not what percentage you can or cannot feel.
My point is very very simple. Towing is safest with the heaviest car towing the lightest caravan. Not many would disagree with that.
My car wil legally tow 2200kg but not with me behind the wheeI. It would be dangerous (in my opinion) towing a caravan at those weights on a public road.
I personally tow about 70% of kerb weight and the heavy stuff like awnings still go in the car.
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I have found the heavier the van the better it towed. When taking the empty van for service etc. it sways about and is easily disturbed by turbulance. Fully laden it just follows the car and because fo the weight it is less affected by turbulance etc.
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Not really arguing that Lutz.
Its what happens then that load is excited by outside forces that matters, not what percentage you can or cannot feel.
My point is very very simple. Towing is safest with the heaviest car towing the lightest caravan. Not many would disagree with that.
My car wil legally tow 2200kg but not with me behind the wheeI. It would be dangerous (in my opinion) towing a caravan at those weights on a public road.
I personally tow about 70% of kerb weight and the heavy stuff like awnings still go in the car.
An outfit is basically only as safe or dangerous as the driver at the wheel. I'm not arging that it's easier, and probably less tiring, to keep the caravan as light as possible relative to the weight of the car, but that doesn't mean that the opposite is, by definition, dangerous. It just requires more concentration and due care and attention when towing.
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Sadly we must disagree then on this particular matter as clearly we have different views.
I firmly support the 85% guidelines and have done so for decades and still not seen or experienced anything to change my view on this safety critical matter.
I am personally convinced that it has prevented many accidents over the years and I hope that any attempt by the makers of ever heavier caravans and lighter cars to change this 85% fail.
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Not really arguing that Lutz.
Its what happens then that load is excited by outside forces that matters, not what percentage you can or cannot feel.
My point is very very simple. Towing is safest with the heaviest car towing the lightest caravan. Not many would disagree with that.
My car wil legally tow 2200kg but not with me behind the wheeI. It would be dangerous (in my opinion) towing a caravan at those weights on a public road.
I personally tow about 70% of kerb weight and the heavy stuff like awnings still go in the car.
..The manufacturer of your car states it can tow 2200kg so how heavy is the car as it is not (according to .gov. UK website)legal to tow more than the gross train weight?
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Sadly we must disagree then on this particular matter as clearly we have different views.
I firmly support the 85% guidelines and have done so for decades and still not seen or experienced anything to change my view on this safety critical matter.
I am personally convinced that it has prevented many accidents over the years and I hope that any attempt by the makers of ever heavier caravans and lighter cars to change this 85% fail.
If your theory were correct, why doesn't one see roads on the Continent littered with caravans when they have never heard of an 85% weight ratio recommendation?
The only country that I am aware of that has any legal weight ratio limit to tow at 100km/h (more or less the same as in the UK) is Germany. Depending on how the outfit is equipped technically, the weight ratio limit there is between 30% and 120%, although
the maximum possible for caravans is 100%. They must surely have done some homework before coming up with these limits.0 -
My previous van was 70%, my current one 86%. I can't say I've noticed any difference other than perhaps a slightly slower pull up hills because of the increased (250Kg weight). Then again, I avoid doing my 'Stig' impersonations when towing, or solo for that
matter.0 -
Well thanks so much for all your replies. Perhaps I might start a new post that will get answers regarding lower car weights possibly affecting towing. irrespective whether there is rule, recommendation, law or even common sense.
..ON here
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..The manufacturer of your car states it can tow 2200kg so how heavy is the car as it is not (according to .gov. UK website)legal to tow more than the gross train weight?
Sorry JVB, I didn't see your post asking me a question.
Freelander 2 TD4
KW 1750kg (My figure)
GVW 2505kg (Handbook)
GTW 4505kg(Handbook)
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Well thanks so much for all your replies. Perhaps I might start a new post that will get answers regarding lower car weights possibly affecting towing. irrespective whether there is rule, recommendation, law or even common sense.
Thats exactly what we are / were discussing.
What did you think we were discussing? Not being rude by the way just really surprised you hadn't realised.
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Those who eschew the idea of towing less than the tow vehicle weight perhaps did not, during their formative years, have an elder sibling with which disputes over posession of toys was settled on the basis of might.
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Actually it is my fault. I headed the post wrongly. I should never have mentioned the 85% rule. The crux of my post should have been directed more towards the fact that cars a being manufactured to be significantly lighter with some having a 1.0 litre
engine capable of producing more power than a much heavier 2 litre. They are using newly developed lightweight steels for the chassis etc. As I cannot see the caravan industry being able to follow suit, at least in the short term, I am genuinely wondering
what affect the changes will have on towing caravans. What effect will the movement towards regenerated energy (harvesting whilst the car is slowing) have? If the move is more towards Hybrids will the battery life be sufficient? Will secondhand deisels increase
in value due to rarity?0 -
Buy your Discovery 4 now, folks!
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Actually it is my fault. I headed the post wrongly. I should never have mentioned the 85% rule. The crux of my post should have been directed more towards the fact that cars a being manufactured to be significantly lighter with some having a 1.0 litre engine
capable of producing more power than a much heavier 2 litre. They are using newly developed lightweight steels for the chassis etc. As I cannot see the caravan industry being able to follow suit, at least in the short term, I am genuinely
wondering what affect the changes will have on towing caravans. What effect will the movement towards regenerated energy (harvesting whilst the car is slowing) have? If the move is more towards Hybrids will the battery life be sufficient? Will secondhand deisels
increase in value due to rarity?...believe it or not. Dethleffs are producing MH for this new season using compressed 'balsa wood' (obviously not like our childhood planes....
) for
their interior furniture.......now, this is a highly respected member of the Hymer group, who have a real desire to 'save weight', even using hollow locker handles to save a few grammes....
the desire and the innovation is certainly alive and well in some parts....can the uk caravan industry get their act together too...?
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Actually it is my fault. I headed the post wrongly. I should never have mentioned the 85% rule. The crux of my post should have been directed more towards the fact that cars a being manufactured to be significantly lighter with some having a 1.0 litre engine
capable of producing more power than a much heavier 2 litre. They are using newly developed lightweight steels for the chassis etc. As I cannot see the caravan industry being able to follow suit, at least in the short term, I am genuinely
wondering what affect the changes will have on towing caravans. What effect will the movement towards regenerated energy (harvesting whilst the car is slowing) have? If the move is more towards Hybrids will the battery life be sufficient? Will secondhand deisels
increase in value due to rarity?...believe it or not. Dethleffs are producing MH for this new season using compressed 'balsa wood' (obviously not like our childhood planes....
) for
their interior furniture.......now, this is a highly respected member of the Hymer group, who have a real desire to 'save weight', even using hollow locker handles to save a few grammes....
the desire and the innovation is certainly alive and well in some parts....can the uk caravan industry get their act together too...?
..Maybe others in the Hymer group will take it up after this experiment ,and customer feed back?
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I suspect that the weight reductions achieved by the caravan industry do little more than offset the increases due to a trend to have ever more 'goodies' fitted to caravans so that one doesn't have to forego any of the creature comforts that one is used
to at home, with the net result that the weight doesn't change at all.0 -
I suspect motor homes will be subject to similar regulations as cars. Perhaps the changes will transfer to caravans.
While 'towing percentahes' arent henerally an issue for MH ers, the big weight issue is the 3500kg threashold for 'normal' license groups....the numbers of us with the larger groups os going down, so more ar going to be looking at 3.5 ton vans, hence the
urgency to pruduce consumer friendly, gadget laden vans at a license friendly weight....0
