Calling all touring photographers...
Comments
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so really its not that you (and a few others) are against losing ownership of a pic per se but more about the fact that others could be financially rewarded for them by a third party ??
I kind of see your point now. Too late for my excellent rainbow pic which will no doubt find its way into Tate at some future point
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DD, spot on
I sent a pic into a TV company of flooding in Nth Yorkshire, I've since seen it used twice by the TV company & part of it in a
Mag. I signed the waiver so it bothers me not in the least but it does bear out what has been posted
. The clever folk/professionals
sign up with sites like 'Getty images' I'm not that clever
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Interesting Rocky. I know folks who would be delighted their image is being used - until they realise someone else had copywrited it and is selling your image for thousands of pounds all over the world by a commercial agency (and they can and do sometimes sell for that)
A bit unlikely perhaps but then I don't know any poor intellectual property rights lawyers.
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Fysh, the upsetting thing is-I won't deny I missed this bit of small print the 1st time around. . . .If I ever wanted to display my image then I'd need permission from the TV company
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thankfully I can keep it on my pad. . . .Phew.0 -
As a full time professional commercial photographer myself, it is heartening to read that so many have seen right through what is basically an image rights grab thinly disguised as a competition. The T&C's for this competition are to be treated with utmost caution.
Allegedly, any contributor may well find their submitted image being sold on without any royalties coming back to the copyright holder. Would the owners of the privately owned CL's have rights to use the images on their own websites? Would the rights to those images still be upheld by the CL owners, should they decide to switch to being a CS with the other club in the future? Without libelling myself too much, it's not difficult to figure out how the licensing of an image could make money for the rights holder, with the copyright holder (the creator) being left out of the deal.
And lets not forget, there are some very talented amateurs out there who would capture some excellent images, the cost of a 'competition prize' being far far less monetary value compared to commissioning professionals up and down the country to capture equivelant standard images.
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Good post NA and food for thought. I post quite a lot of wildlife pics on CT could there be a copyright issue with those photos?
i had a pic published in the CC magazine a couple of years ago and never considered copyright.
I for one won't be contributing to the competition
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Good post NA and food for thought. I post quite a lot of wildlife pics on CT could there be a copyright issue with those photos?
i had a pic published in the CC magazine a couple of years ago and never considered copyright.
I for one won't be contributing to the competition
Like Facebook and Instagram, many forums have terms and conditions you sign up to whereby if you post an image, the forum owner can make use of that image with no royalties due back to the creator. Always watermark your images if you don't wish for them
to be distributed in this way. Of course, many are not concerned about receiving royalties and are just happy to see their images published, thats fine and a decision you have to make when sharing your work.There are companies and organisations however (think Instagram) that are making billions by selling on images that have had their rights given up. All that contributors are doing is feeding their libraries and not seeing the benefits.
Try submitting your images to a library such as Alamy, you could make money from them
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When I first read the OP I thought that the concept was good, the idea is good BUT, since reading the many posts from those who have looked into the terms of submitting images to this photographic competition, I now add my name to those who have no wish
to have anything to with it. I therefore will NOT submit any photographic images.K
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When I first read the OP I thought that the concept was good, the idea is good BUT, since reading the many posts from those who have looked into the terms of submitting images to this photographic competition, I now add my name to those who have no wish to have anything to with it. I therefore will NOT submit any photographic images.
K
If it were a genuine amateur competition for the sake of some fun plus an opportunity for members to express their interest in photography AND not a means to gain an expansive library of images for potential commercial use, the T&C's would read rather differently. Declaring that the creators have to give up rights to show their work outside of the Caravan Club is not fair practice. Within our profession, such competition rules do not exist, the rights of the creators are fully respected. Sadly, it's the amateurs that are often exploited, usually without adequate understanding. Hence, many competitions aren't open to professionals, because most professionals that have been in business long enough, know about intellectual property rights and the laws that are in place to protect them.
All that is required is a change to the T&C's basically giving the Caravan Club rights to reproduce the images submitted, but not an exclusive license. This would be fairer. Sure, there's a remote chance the same image might pop up in a publication or on a website outside of the CC but that would be a chance they would have to take. The Caravan Club would however have to seek the creators permission before distributing images to third parties, something I suspect they don't want to have to do.
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Yes, you're right but for those who don't understand the implications, I gave a little more detail
Hypothetical example...
A member submits a cracking landscape image into the competition, in doing so giving up all reproduction rights. The new rights holder contacts the land owner and tells them they have a great photo and would they like a copy for their own use. 'Great' the
land owner says, send it over and the land owner now uses that image on his own website. He's happy, he's got an image he's not had to pay for. Everyone's happy. The land owner then cuts ties with the image rights holder, the image rights holder now wants
the image removed from the land owners website or he has to pay a fee to keep using it.You see where I'm going with this
All of which is out of the creators' hands... the poor guy that has done all of the hard work to make that
fantastic image has no control, no say in how the image is used, or manipulated.0 -
I just wanted to reassure you that the sole objective of the competition is to find images that give a true reflection of the wonderful CL sites we have on offer. User generated content, especially visual, gives a real representation to members of what they
can expect and as such is very much valued. We have such a wonderful network of CL sites that many members enjoy. We want to support them and we appreciate your help in doing this too.You also often find that maany people really enjoy contributing and seeing their images used, however we completely understand if you would prefer not to submit any images and please don’t feel that you have to contribute.
Please be assured we are by no means trying to exploit member’s photographs but, with your help, are trying to offer inspiration to others whilst supporting the CL network, with the chance to win a prize along the way.
I hope this helps to clear up any confusion and thank you for your posts.
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Given that most Caravan Club members are not professional photographers I doubt whether the exclusive use requirement is particularly going to bother them and to have one of their photos published or even win a prize would make them really proud. Those of us the want to retain the exclusive use of our photos I expect won't take part in such competitions. However it is understandable that the Club might want those exclusive rights in order to protect the same photos being used in associated publications like a caravan magazine etc, rather than the Club wanting to "market" the actual photograph. Whether people like it or not the Club is perfectly at liberty to set the rules as they see fit for any competition they run. The final decision on whether to take part firmly rests with the photographer, no one is being forced to participate?
David
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You are fully entitled to put forward your personal view DK but I would like to read an official response from CC Ltd.
I am not sure there is anything to respond to. The Club have set the rules of the competition. If people don't like those rules they don't take part. Simple as that really.
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Rochelle said...we need you!
We need your help to capture the beauty, exclusivity and tranquillity of your holiday on a Certified Location site. Each CL is unique, whether on a working farm, large country estate, in the heart of the country or handy for a city, each provides inspiration
for stunning photography! Capture a moment to inspire other members to enjoy CLs.It sounds like an excellent opportunity for member/owners to publisize their own sites, and bring some more business their way.
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I see the response from Ro as the current official CC Ltd response: I also see it as platitudes and waffle. So the simple question is “If CC Ltd is not trying to exploit member’s photographs will they change the Terms and Conditions to reflect that fact?” For clarity the answer is “Yes” or “No”.
That'll be a NO then, and I can totally understand why. With exclusive rights, the club can distribute images whether for a fee, or free of charge, without having to contact the creator to seek permission each and every time they wish to do so. From the response the CC have given, they would not be seeking to charge for use (you would have to take their word on this and you would never know otherwise regardless) but they do intend to distribute to the CL owners, so that they can use the images to promote themselves, be that in print or web media) With exclusive rights, they can basically do what they want with the images and as per the C&CC Image Library (yes they have one) the club can also distribute to the media as they see fit, and charge for certain images if they want to (just as the C&CC do)
Of course, all of this doesn't matter if entrants to the competition have no concerns about how their entries will be used, it is entirely their choice. I think the reasoning behind the T&C's has been highlighted and if contributors are still happy to enter, then that is their call.
It's still an image rights grab though... disguised as a competition
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If the club wants photographs to use on an exclusive basis for commercial purposes they should pay the going rate for the appropriate licence.
Hopefully CT members are now better informed why competitions like this exist and can make a choice to enter or not based upon the knowledge they are nothing more than an image grab.
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I just wanted to reassure you that the sole objective of the competition is to find images that give a true reflection of the wonderful CL sites we have on offer. User generated content, especially visual, gives a real representation to members of what they
can expect and as such is very much valued. We have such a wonderful network of CL sites that many members enjoy. We want to support them and we appreciate your help in doing this too.You also often find that maany people really enjoy contributing and seeing their images used, however we completely understand if you would prefer not to submit any images and please don’t feel that you have to contribute.
Please be assured we are by no means trying to exploit member’s photographs but, with your help, are trying to offer inspiration to others whilst supporting the CL network, with the chance to win a prize along the way.
I hope this helps to clear up any confusion and thank you for your posts.
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to follow up on Rowena's post from yesterday as I can see there is a concern that The Club could be distributing competition entries for sale or profit.
Please be assured that The Club will only be using the competition entries for promotion of our CL network. Images will not be distributed outside of The Club for a fee or otherwise.
The reason for the 'Exclusive Use' in the competition's Terms and Conditions is to ensure that when we use the images to promote the CL network, they haven't already been used elsewhere in stock photo libraries or as a different competition entry so that
the imagery we publish is fresh and unique for our audience.The aim for us is to have a thriving and inspirational image bank which we can use on our website, in our own publications and social media channels to promote The Club and our products and services. And who better than to contribute to this than those out
there making use of the different sites available on our CL network?I really hope this alleviates any concerns about the use of any images.
Hannah
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I just wanted to reassure you that the sole objective of the competition is to find images that give a true reflection of the wonderful CL sites we have on offer. User generated content, especially visual, gives a real representation to members of what they can expect and as such is very much valued. We have such a wonderful network of CL sites that many members enjoy. We want to support them and we appreciate your help in doing this too.
You also often find that maany people really enjoy contributing and seeing their images used, however we completely understand if you would prefer not to submit any images and please don’t feel that you have to contribute.
Please be assured we are by no means trying to exploit member’s photographs but, with your help, are trying to offer inspiration to others whilst supporting the CL network, with the chance to win a prize along the way.
I hope this helps to clear up any confusion and thank you for your posts.
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to follow up on Rowena's post from yesterday as I can see there is a concern that The Club could be distributing competition entries for sale or profit.
Please be assured that The Club will only be using the competition entries for promotion of our CL network. Images will not be distributed outside of The Club for a fee or otherwise.
The reason for the 'Exclusive Use' in the competition's Terms and Conditions is to ensure that when we use the images to promote the CL network, they haven't already been used elsewhere in stock photo libraries or as a different competition entry so that the imagery we publish is fresh and unique for our audience.
The aim for us is to have a thriving and inspirational image bank which we can use on our website, in our own publications and social media channels to promote The Club and our products and services. And who better than to contribute to this than those out there making use of the different sites available on our CL network?
I really hope this alleviates any concerns about the use of any images.
Hannah
better* = cheaper
Sorry, but Rowena's post above claims that members contributing to the competition are not being exploited... are you sure about that?
You are openly admitting this isn't about being a competition, but more about creating a commercial library
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Here's a thought... run the competition and filter down the entries before selecting the winners, to lets say for example, the best 100 or so images. Any entry that makes this prelimanary round receives 1 x Site Night Voucher
I gaurantee the club will get plenty of entries for their "in house" library and they should be of a good quality, as they would be expected to make the 'cut-off' (lets face it, poor quality images will end up in the 'trash' can anyway, won't they?)
Members will feel they are earning something for giving up their image rights. The Club would be likely to only make use of the highest quality images submitted, lesser quality images would not make the 'cut' and thus not earn a voucher.
100 x Site Night Voucher, approx cost to the club £2000-3000, a mere scratch in the clubs finances and a hell of a lot cheaper than commissioning the photography.
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