Stability issues solved
Hi fellow caravaners,
Following a thread on Stability issues I have been prompted to start a new thread by some members.
I'm a retired Transport Engineer and keen touring caravaning enthusiast. Some years ago I was induced into solving stability issues when in France by many Dutch, German and Brits who had migrated to motor homes for the above reasons -some with bad endings despite being equipped with the latest gadgets in the Industry ATC and friction devices. I have succeeded following three years in developing an easy solution with 100% success covering Anti jackknife, lateral and vertical instability. As a private pilot I have used differential braking on aircraft and have applied this concept in my design. It uses no electronics at all and stops lateral acceleration before it starts regardless of how it is created - wind or avoidence - you will never know it's there and does not affect overrun or reversing features of the van. It also is not affected by loading,speed or type of towing vehicle - large, small, two wheel drive ,4 wheel drive etc. None of industry offerings can claim this and none are interested, so would this be of interest to caravaners - comments and questions welcome
John
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I think anything that improves the safety of towing a caravan benefits everyone. The problem as always is cost, I know you can't put a price on a life but equally most people don't have unlimited funds and therefore take the best precautions they can. Can it be retro fitted?
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I'll try to answer all in one go: It is the best retrofit you will ever come cross as long as it has standard overun brakes on any chassis. I have written to all engaged in the caravan industry bar none - no response. It should not affect any warranty because
it does not involve any changes to the original chassis or involve any drilling and it is fitted to the caravan with just a simple Witter cycle attachment to the tow bar accepted by vehicle tow bar manufacturers and this can still be used when on site to carry
your bikes. Being a dual function I use a Witter on the back of my Bailey to carry the two electric bikes - you should see the amazement of others when they see this combination trolling along at maximum speed down the mountains in France with no hint of instability-
I just smile with content.I'm unsure of any other applications just yet - still trying to get the basic out there.
Flatcoat : lets just see how it goes for a while: majors are so obsessed with technology they cannot see the wood for the trees and I love technology especially car stability programs - this design transmits what the car is doing and reacts.
The algorithm is mechanical IF,OR,AND,THEN, cannot fail.
Take a look at the latest from BPW it cannot compare with this system and this can be put together for around £150 or less mass produced.
John
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John, you are only likely to get a few comments from members here (I can see that only 60 have viewed so far). Have you approached the Club technical folk? They may show more interest than you’ve received from manufacturers and, if you get no joy with this club, there is always the other one.
I used to use a “trapezium” stabiliser. A mechanical device that gave the effect of having the towball closer to the rear axle. It seemed to work well and made reversing much easier but has been overtaken by newer ideas.
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Hi rogher
Yes I have and they declared that it is not their policy to get involved in this kind of activity. Over the last three years of development I have managed with great difficulty to keep the system under wraps when on sites etc - people can be very nosey
when you try to hide something. Seems a bit odd that a club would not want to assist in a unique life saving piece of hardware but that's life.John
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Hi Flatcoat
You do get the concept - I'm glad you do. I am a great fan of ALKO they produce a fantastic chassis, but they have lost a bit of focus on this technology. Their lateral sensor has to first detect and discriminate any yaw before it will react 2 seconds then activate the brakes to slow down a 3.5 tonne combination 1 second, in that time a driver will now be feeling the amplituude of the horizontal and vertical movements,destabalising the car rear end and front steering ability - you know the outcome. My simple Differential stabilty is always on and can discriminate between normal sway and adverse in .5 and will never let the van go off track and it does this without slowing down the combination - it also simultaneously stops vertical oscillations. All vehicles use slip angles in the tyres to enable them to function it is how they are controled that is important. That is what the Youtube Video exploits on their System - they make the vehicle dangerously unstable by reducing the nose weight so that any slight twitch on the car steering causes the car rear end to wag the trailer and it looks like it is the van that's wagging they then show when it is using the system and see how smooth it looks in the hands of a proffessional driver - I and other engineers can see this - don't be fooled.
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Since the inroduction of Whole Vehicle Type Approval any new system only stands a chance of being accepted on a broad scale if the market potential is large enough and not restricted to the UK only. Consequently, it too would have to be type approved. Without detailed knowledge of the working principle it is difficult, if not impossible, to judge its value. Anything which would involve any modifications or additions to the coupling system, for example, stands little chance of being approved without changes to existing regulations and we all know how long such changes take to implement.
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Hi Lutz Quite right and that is why we need the deep pockets of the majors to take up revolutionary ideas. The type approval rules are in place to ensure they comply with all safety elements, but this is flawed when innovation is subdued. This concept has
been on my shelves for over 25 years and amazingly has never been exploited - it does not mean that someone has not already thought of it in some backroom somewhere. I have other things gathering dust. Almost every innovation has occured by accident but has
a consequence of ever changing rules, progress is slow. The fact that ALKO state that it is the responsibilty of all users to ensure they keep their vehicles in good condition and they accept no liability for the use of theirs or words to that effect is contradictory
to the type approval principle. That is why I have gone to great lengths to ensure that nothing can be added that changes the original application down to the last nut and bolt.John
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Hi all,
Thanks for your imput it is of great value so keep it coming - who knows maybe someone in the majors will take notice and take a look at this one - It really couls do with a beta testing program to examine the performance when coupled/ fitted to many vehicle types alas when the majors have invested so much cash in their crazy offering there is a fat chance of that. I have welcomed the opportunity of anyone to critique this and evaluate the potential in a fair manner for the benefit of all - it used to be the case when people were rewarded for innovation and shear hard work but that all went out the window with Tesler. I don't expect anything and will get nothing - not even recognition.
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Hi EJB986 That is a correct interpretaion since this device does not interfere with the caravan or cars existing application - in other words it can only enhance the provision of the application and is fail safe so that for example if a connecting rod comes
loose there is no risk of the original application failing from that occurance. However, it must be remembered that it is the drivers responsibilty to ensure the safe working of the vehicle by periodic visual checks. Nothing is perfect even wheels do come
loose after torquing etc. Remember this before you set of with your super dooper caravan and high end car.0 -
Hi EJ, If you mean can it used to overcome adverse loading or problems with the combination then absolutely not. You have to carry on doing what you have when loading,driving. It is designed for enhancing areas normally out of control of the driver.
John
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I too had a very workable idea, not in the same field, and the reason it wasn't adopted was because it didn't improve on items aleady available.
I also had another idea that after a major trade show at the NEC went viral (Viral meant a disease in those days!) and is still available within it's particular trade.
So, the first one wasn't worth the effort and the second one couldn't be protected.
I sincerely wish you luck but there is always a reason why good ideas are ignored!
PS. Caught your last post...Yes assuming common sense in all cases!!!!
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Hi EJ
Many years ago in my transport days there was real spate of artics rolling over and noone knew why since it was a low speed roll. They called it the slow roll phenomenon. Several of my trucks were always high on the tractor suspension which gave a slope down to the back of the trailers but just one of my older units actually had a softer suspension that sloped forward and this one was a dream to drive because it never felt the load roll when cornering. I studied this and found that the Geometry changed when the trailers rose or dropped - bingo I had discovered the root cause of slow roll. A top University team had been working on the subject and tried to find a way to tilt the trailers - they never succeeded because it had a flaw they could never overcome the fifth wheel geometry would never allow them to use hydraulics - I found solution that did not need any hydraulics or sensors and used the inertia of the load itself to lean the trailer into the turn thus compensating for the centrifugal tilt outwards - applied for a patent and got it approved ready for the applied for status - cost me a fortune. Because of type approval laws that were about to come in to the industry no one would take it on so I released it to all. In the mean time air suspensions came in that allowed the vehicles to be leveled . However I still see Artics rolling down the road with the trailer sloping back - beware.
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HI Xtrailman Thanks for response it really does matter what your views are since that indicates the kind of reception it gets when presented. You cannot be asked to give a buying decision on this because you do not understand how it works I understand that.
I'm not selling this to anyone just making people aware that a solution exists and maybe someone will take notice who does understand the issue. I have given enough clues of what it does just held back for now on how it does it since that is what holds the
key- some have already seen the concept which is totatally new to caravan stability, however, those who fly have to use this concept to land and take off also most Agricultural machines all use Differential steering/braking. I am not looking for handouts
so DD is not an option. Please carry on following this thread for more enlightenment.John
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Hi Xtrail, If you look at my earlier post you will take note why I would not go that patent route - I would be better putting the money on the Lottery. If I did manage to get a Patent, in no time at all someone would copy it, steal it,modify it, now I have released the concept. There will be many trying to fathom how I make it work then they will cash in. What I am contemplating is to launch it on YouTube with some nice piccys then sell the plans for the DIY market this will stop the big guys snap in it up for big profits. I may even offer it with Honesty box for people to put in what they think it is worth to them.
Ps I have dozens of videos that I placed on the van over the trial period to monitor the operation and effectivness.
Watch out for probably the only Black Peugeot towing a Van with two bikes strapped to the back heading for France this summer.
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Hi Landlubber, sound brilliant and it has to be better than the alko atc.
Before you all tell me the atc is good I know it is but it also has flaws, pot hotes activate it, going down hill then the change to going up hill on the motorway mine activated, it dropped the outfit speed from 60 to 40 thankfully there was nothing behind
me as the system does not activate the brake lights.If there had been an artic close behind I shudder to think what the outcome could have been.
I would be very interested in buying it, had some ideas of my own but now being disabled can't put them into action.
If you build it for people let word of mouth do the rest, .as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Let me know when its available
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Hi Intransient1
I will let you know when progress is made, but I really need the big guys to take it on because of the complexities involved - not the production that's the easy bit. Just a brief explantion for anyon reading. It works just like the overrun brake except that it operates left or right brake to steer the van back on track if it deviates by more than set rate - it allows for normal driving and reversing before it activates it has to overcome a very tiny amount of yaw left or right but at a specific imperceptable rate and also in the vertical plane simultaneously - this is what is known as Differential Steering. It does not have to wait for a sensor to acivate or a motor to work it is active not passive just like as I said the overrun brake.
I'll try to post a story you must read.
John
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Hello Rick - Thanks for your response and your best wishes I'm happy you can see the potential. I assure you I will - I am so confident in this concept and proven device I challenge the majors to compete on any aspect of my claim. It is still being developed
further I just cannot stop.The design is leading me onto enable the device to allow the trailer to track a wider circle than possible by simply following the tow vehicle so that in towns where the trailer might be liable to cut the corner and ride up a kerb it will track away by several
degrees. Currently I have designed it to only actuate when lateral acceleration is above normal driving, I have two methods I am working on to enable a switch over from Urban to Motorways and I am within a hairs breadth of achieving this, however, to go
the extra mile it would need a little bit of electronic help to switch over. My challenge to the competition now is to cover :(1) Stop Jackknife. (2) Reduce vertical amplitude (3) stop lateral oscillations without slowing down and with the fastest (4) Half their costs (5) Simple DIY (6) Robust and long life (7) No electrical components
to fail (8) Have no electrical connection to the tow vehicle and no connection to the caravan battery.Please support with a Like if you do.
John
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Hi Doug.
Nothing is tested on the road - all testing is done off road and there is nothing about the device that can possibly interfere with the original caravan system - I am a qualified engineer with 40 years experience and capable of ensuring that what I do will
never endanger life or limb or compromise safety in any way shape or form. I operated some of the largest vehicles on the road for 20 years and never had an incident with any of my vehicles also for the record in 58 years of driving have never had a speeding
or other offence - one parking ticket which I am ashamed of.Would you trust me on this
PS Noone else will get the device fitted until it has been given approval by any
authority and it will.John
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Hi Rhoger,
Thanks for the moral support - I've thrown down the gauntlet to the big guns. I know they have poured money into their ADT/iDC but they will have to accept defeat on this - I can wipe the floor with Differential Stability and would go head to head when and
where they chose. I have a simulation setup in my workshop and it is currently on 9,000 cycles - about estimated 5 year of hard running still good. The new development - urban use is held up for a device I cannot produce yet but the concept works a treat
and will give 15 degrees corner control maybe more when I test out on off road site at urban speed. Everything has to be tested rigorously.regards
John
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